Diesels on steam tours

Re: 71000 DUKE OF GLOUCESTER ON THE V.S.O.E

Well, if you can't see the difference between that and this,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtnDyxsA6D4,
then I honestly think you're going a bit potty

 

Re: September 5th Exeter Cathedrals Express changed again.... to 30th October!

Apologies for not reading the posts previous to this,don't have the time/patience to read through it all so i am just going to post my account of the day.

Thanks to all involved.

I enjoyed yesterday's tour,purely for the 37 in the end,had the 37 not been there then it wouldn't of been a good tour at all from my point of view. I assume the 37 pushed to regain lost time. I don't mind the diesel pushing,it could be on full throttle for all i care for the entire trip. Its been at the back all day that's the main problem.

Yesterday it couldn't be avoided due to all the changes but unfortunately it happens all to often these days and i fear its starting to put people off.

Good performance by Bittern and 37516,Nick,you will have plenty of footage to enjoy

And Nick (Hatherton Hall version) you will really love all the diesel footage

Thanks to Marcus and other SD people for coming through the train apologising/asking how we felt,its very much appreciated.

CheersMark

 

Re: September 5th Exeter Cathedrals Express changed again.... to 30th October!

I suspect it will not be too long now before a diesel is a permanent fixture in all supposedly steam hauled excursions regardless of load, route or season. The Jacobite might survive untainted but little hope should be held out for anything else. For the vast majority of the general public the sight of a diesel included in a 'steam hauled' excursion, be it at the front or the rear, means only one thing - steam engines cannot manage to work trains on their own. If I were a locomotive owner, rather than just a member of a society with a mainline certified engine, I would withdraw from the mainline faced with the capabilities of the machine I owned being belittled and undermined. Ther must be some on this forum who can remember when an unwanted diesel pilot turned up to 'assist' No. 9.

I know I have posted the opinion before, but the engines we have now are not capable of preserving steam traction as a feature to be seen on the modern network.

 

Re: September 5th Exeter Cathedrals Express changed again.... to 30th October!

Hi, can I raise a question?
We recently had 2 trips up here in NE England which were both saved by the use of 'tin-cans'.
I refer, of course, to the NELPG Blyth Spirit trip where the K1 failed the evening before the trip, and the Silver Jubilee where both locos suffered due to coal problems.
The 1st trip would have been cancelled without the 37 taking over, no-one would have seen the lines, enjoyed the day out, NELPG would have been financially at a loss and no-one would have won anything. Remember, the train was fully booked.
The Silver Jubilee was in deep mire at Newcastle and don't question it. The only way those travellers would have got back home would have been on service trains, indeed some did. Getting a diesel from York was the answer and it took time.
Should there be a standby engine at Newcastle?, ah I remember the days of a 47 sitting in a bay platform waiting for the call which sometimes came, (even last year I seem to remember). Obviously not a viable situation nowadays.
Again, diesel saved the day.
What annoys me more is when I go to book a trip leaving at 9.00am and find it is retimed to leave at 07.30 but sits in Tyne Yard for 1.5 hours.

 

Re: September 5th Exeter Cathedrals Express changed again.... to 30th October!

No! I'm in the same camp. I choose the tours carefully if any doubt I keep my money in my pocket.
Brian

 

Re: September 5th Exeter Cathedrals Express changed again.... to 30th October!

...based on what? The decision to have one has always been on a case-by-case basis as far as im aware and i see no reason to think thats going to change anytime soon.

Chris

 

Re: September 5th Exeter Cathedrals Express changed again.... to 30th October!

You must be going to different galas then...cause the ones I,ve been to have run ok....odd hiccup here and there...but otherwise no complaints of well run galas....... But I suppose you have never run a gala either.....and would know how to run one either....not like your toy train set at home....

 

Re: 71000 DUKE OF GLOUCESTER ON THE V.S.O.E

On the return from Carlisle, the diesel locomotive was not working - period. Driver Alberts Seymour says it was not working, A highly responsible Traction and rolling stock engineer from Network Rail says it was not working, Mike Notley was on the engine and he says it was not working, and finally the data recorder says it was not working. Now if you wish to call all of us liars, and also accuse us of tampering with the data recorder and its records, that is fine, it is your perogative, but do think carefully before confirming this, as this will move you into the arena of a very serious allegation. In the meantime I shall arrange for someone to forward to you the address of the Flat Earth Society's membership secretary.

It is also worth pointing out that it was fully intended to operate this train without the diesel insurance until 3 days before the event when WCR asked for the diesel to be included. I personally would have preferred to leave it behind, mainly to save the additional fuel consumption. I suspect that you will probably insinuate that this is also a lie. If you do so please sign it with your real name and not with a nom de plume. On balance I believe that the majority of passengers on this particular train probably possess a somewhat broader, and maybe less cynical outlook than that which you display here, and were happy that they have travelled on it, certainly that is what my post bag suggests, as I have yet to receive a complaint from anyone on this issue.

Regards Bob Meanley

 

Re: September 5th Exeter Cathedrals Express changed again.... to 30th October!

Apologies if i didnt make it clear but im far from complaining, in fact im quite happy to accept it because while the most complex gala's with the most intensive timetables sometimes suffer from these issues its a price worth paying for when things do turn out right. Railtours, just like many preserved line gala's, often have to push the boundaries to be interesting, and crucially, to make money.

Chris

 

Re: September 5th Exeter Cathedrals Express changed again.... to 30th October!

Says who?

How do you get to speak for "the vast majority of the public"? It's actually not even the majority on this forum, judging by the comments posted. And bookings seem to remain healthy, even though the diesel issue has been greater this year.

"The engines we have now" is a moveable feast. Some cope, some fail, some triumph. Some go out of ticket, some come in. Provided the demands on them are realistic, I suspect the railway planners are happy to see them there. Over-ambitious routes, overloaded trains, leaf-fall seaon, etc, will see caution applied. But there'll be many tours in the future with no box attached, that's for sure.

 

Re: September 5th Exeter Cathedrals Express changed again.... to 30th October!

Would you prefer no Mainline steam at all ?, because that's the way it would soon head with the kamikaze type of operation for the 21st century that some here seem to advocate, slipping and sliding to a halt or failing or whatever causing a big delay on the S&C in the 80's wasn't much of a problem because there was sod all traffic using it then, coming out of a busy Waterloo in 2010 with 444's and 450's flying all over the place is a little different and the potential for chaos is huge even with only a moderate delay, trains today are faster, more numerous and quicker to accelerate and brake then even 20 years ago and thus the windows to fit in steam tours have shrunk accordingly.

It's all very well accusing Tour Promoters of not doing what's advertised, but being delayed by a late running Service for example is not what's advertised, do you compain about that ? no you don't since it's outside their control, the point is operational risks and hiccups on the day are nothing new and an occupational hazard of running steam tours, the Promoters WANT the train to run steam unassisted and to be fair if alls going to plan then that's what should happen, some of you talk as if they have the Diesel push purely to annoy you, the fact is there is an operational need to do it sometimes and get the tour out the proverbial rather than hang about anymore than necessary and make things even worse.

If your running 2 hours down with an ailing steamer upfront i'd certainly rather the Diesel push than put future steam operations at risk by being pig headed and not caring who gets caught up the delays your making, steam being helped out the sh*t occasionally is better than no steam at all, and seems to be a point that some don't appreciate, you can point to open access and say steam has a right to run all you like but, NR won't stand for people taking the proverbial with regards to timekeeping and reliability in 2010.

While not having a go at any poster in particular, im getting a bit sick of this 'stuck record' now and beginning to understand why many have left NP now, in 98% of cases when a Diesel has provided assistance there has been a good operational need to do so, fact.

 

Re: September 5th Exeter Cathedrals Express changed again.... to 30th October!

Problem is,95% of the people who voice their comments were not there on the day,on that train. You can't just go saying this and that. Speculation and arguements. I suppose thats why this forum is here. Strange how I can rarely recall this scale of arguement actually on board a train.

 

Re: 71000 DUKE OF GLOUCESTER ON THE V.S.O.E

Thanks for your message Bob.
Now at least we known why the diesel was on the train.

 

Re: 71000 DUKE OF GLOUCESTER ON THE V.S.O.E

Spot on, I agree with that. The people who complain about this are only concerned with events on a given day, if something unforeseen happens, and delays occur they don't have to start ringing round to get a loco to assist , they don't have to handle the bills for delays which drop on the doormat. Then we have the Castle over the S&C, it did a wonderful job and then we see people calling for it to do it again "with a few more coaches on" see how it does then, For Gods sake why? do these people want to hang so much on until it stalls. "Ooo, it's stopped, can somebody ring Carnforth and get a diesel up here".
I witnessed a scene at Wakefiel Kirkgate during the summer when the Scarborough jobs were running, lots of familys waiting for the train, it should have been one of the black 5's but no, a 47 on the front, no steam engine. The 5 had had a problem so off it came and the 47 was hooked on. The young kids weren't concerned, they were going to the seaside on a train. Top marks to WCRC for HAVING A BACKUP in place, it was only about 15 minutes late.
Enjoy what we have got, it won't last forever

 

Re: 71000 DUKE OF GLOUCESTER ON THE V.S.O.E

I'm afraid I'm also in the ranks of those who don't understand what the fuss is about. There are plenty of walks of life where what you get isn't what was advertised but you just have to deal with it as part of the fallibility of life. If you go to see a musical in the theatre and the headline star has no voice so is replaced by an understudy, you don't get a refund. If you buy a train ticket and end up with a bus substitute service you don't get a refund. If you buy a balloon flight for someone's birthday and you actually end up flying 2 weeks late due to bad weather - you don't get a refund. Like it or not Concorde (nor any heritage aircraft) is highly unlikely ever to be granted a take off slot at Heathrow. You wouldn't be allowed to run a traction engine up the M1!

Heritage rail gets a lot of freedom compared to other heritage interests - we are allowed out to run on the mainline, and when it all goes to plan, and the engine is on form, then the diesel can stay "power off" and we can enjoy the spectacle. Expecting the commercial railway to let us play 1950's renactments on the mainline with unreliable kit/coal and no backup plan is totally unrealistic. The best that is on offer at the moment is a wide variety of steam locos from lots of different owner groups mainly running under power but with "insurance". The likely alternative is a very limited pool of highly proven locos on lightly loaded and very expensive trains, with most of the current mainline fleet pensioned off to 25mph shuffles on heritage lines. I would be the first to agree that if we could run without special restrictions (e.g. speed) or diesel insurance then it would be great, but the reality is that we are not running a 1950's railway where steam traction is the norm, water troughs still exist, lineside vegetation is controlled in the expectation of sparks etc etc. Steam in 2010 is very much the demanding guest, and like any other polite guest - if you know you are making life hard for your host and they still have the grace to keep inviting you back, then you do as much as you can to mitigate the problems.

 

Re: 71000 DUKE OF GLOUCESTER ON THE V.S.O.E

If you had read the thread about The Pride Of Swindon you would already know all this. Bob has posted at great length explaining what happened and why.

We already have a "sticky" thread dedicated to the vexed subject of diesels on steam tours. Please can everyone carry one the debate over there and leave this thread, and others, for discussion of the particular tours they were created for. Thank you.

 

Re: 71000 DUKE OF GLOUCESTER ON THE V.S.O.E

As is common on NP a misapprehension, in this case of my meaning, and taking my comment out of context, has lead you to make an unwarranted ad hominem response.

I wrote "It's not a question of belief. If the diesel engine is running it is impossible to be sure of its power contribution. If it's dead, it's different; then it is just ugly."

I should perhaps have written ""It's not a question of belief. If the diesel engine is working it is impossible to be sure of its power contribution."

"Palace Gates" wrote earlier in the thread, "Because Ralph I am.I understand that it was working during part of the day and that power output figures cannot be relied upon.Figures are calculated on the weight of the train,grade and speed.The only way you can guarantee output figures is if the train is clean.Anything else and the logging of such trains is a waste of time and money.This has become my narrow interest and I am entitled to my view,and no one is going to change my mind."

I have no way of knowing whether he is right that there was diesel assistance during part of the day and you haven't clarified this.

I accused nobody of lying nor do I insinuate such. As an observer, sometimes an a train, sometimes not, I cannot always tell if a diesel locomotive, is live, dead, heating or providing traction. That is what I meant by my admittedly terse comment.

 

Cathedrals

Some good points David.

I would just like to add some views.
I will hold my hands up and say yes, I have moaned about the diesels on some of the steam tours we have been on. But that was only when the use of them was clearly "over the top". One trip in particular from this year sticks in the mind during the fire risk period. The second RTC trip to Swanage with 30777 even had the diesel pushing down grade and the train was not running late. We know it was pushing because we were sitting right next to it in the last carriage using sign language to communicate! Was that pushing really necessary? In contrast on the 9th July trip with 46115 during the fire risk period, the use of the diesel was much more "sensible" and only when required.

On Saturday the 37 was clearly needed for assistance and did a grand job with helping make up some of the lost time. In the past diesels have "come to the rescue" on a number of trips we have been on. In particular when 5029 failed on the trip to Ludlow and Shrewsbury a couple of years ago I was very glad to see a Class 67 return with the train otherwise we would have got home the next day. But why did 5029 fail? She was overloaded on a challenging route. Sadly though in our experience they have caused more problems when they have been attached to the rear of the train. The worst example of this was a CE with 71000. On the return leg from Bristol the "assisting" Class 47 at the rear of train had a major brake failure right out in the sticks and the train couldn't move. We got back home very late from this run.

Also what kind of view does this give the public when they see a diesel pushing a steam loco? I can say that my Father and I are trying to get some new bums on seats on charters as several colleagues at work have shown interest about going on ML steam trips. When we have told them about runs in the local area they have gone out to see them to see what they can expect before booking up and have then moaned about the prices when seeing a diesel doing all the work at the back. They also had the impression that the Steam Loco's were not up to the job and that is why the diesel was on the back. We did set them straight about why it was there but they have since lost interest.

I love seeing steam on the ML and prefer riding behind steam on the ML but I must admit that apart from a handful of good runs in the last couple of years it has been getting less enjoyable.

 

Re: 71000 DUKE OF GLOUCESTER ON THE V.S.O.E

How would you suggest it should be clarified. The driver of the thing has said it wasn't working, the inspector has said it wasn't working, Mike Notley has said it wasn't working, the data recording has shown it wasn't working. I reckon that should be good enough for most people.
Come up with a suggestion.

 

Re: 71000 DUKE OF GLOUCESTER ON THE V.S.O.E