Diesels on steam tours

As a train timer I find this interesting. Does it mean that with the traction motors energised the diesel is carrying its own weight and therefore the weight behind the steam loco consists only of the loaded carriages, or does it mean the steam loco is still pulling the weight of the free wheeling diesel, which is effectively freewheeling in the same way as the carriages do and that if the traction motors were not energised the steam loco would not only have the weight of the diesel to pull but an additional handicap viz. the "drag" factor.

I would find it useful if someone could clarify this please.

 

With all respect it sounds nonsense.

I think one of the diesel forums with a lot of drivers on it discussed the whole 'carrying its own weight' issue with regards to assisting diesels. The conclusion was it is impossible to open a diesel up accurately enough to just take its own weight and how would you calculate it?

There are instances where the supporting diesel doesn't have a driver on too, the requriements are for a competent person capable of shutting it down in an emergency. This can be a trainman or even a driver who doesn;t have route knowledge

 

I can see that idea, just can't see how an analogue controlled loco could apply power that accurately.

 

Diesel on Steam tours

For the record, the rumour of the diesel pushing seemed to start in the buffet car at the Water stop in Carnforth and seemed to be coming from the people around the middle of the train and appeared to be based on the 47 ‘putting out a lot of clag’. I did not hear any reports yesterday of actually hearing the loco powering up or feeling jolts – although I note what 5944 has posted. Those of us at the front had no idea the diesel was pushing (but then we wouldn’t). Albert Seymour was asked on the platform at Preston and he also claimed no knowledge of a shove “but then I’m up the front so I wouldn’t”.

Subsequent enquiries were made with WCRC and they claimed no use of the diesel. The drive is understood to have been one Paul Kane. As we were making good speed and were well on schedule I can see no reason that somebody so intimately associated with steam locomotive performance would feel the need to interfere. Paul was understood to have denied giving a push. {NB: The situation in the morning was different as 6201 was slipping, I guess due to the damp and misty conditions}

The best independent evidence came from two reports from Coach A, which was coupled absolutely next to the diesel. I visited two friends in that coach and they were both shocked at the idea the diesel had been assisting. “We’d certainly of heard it” and “all it was doing was ticking over for heating, the same all the way”. Another passenger in our coach (H) also had a friend in coach A and he received the same assurance.

I know people have said 6201 wasn’t making enough noise but we had a strong cross wind and that can blow the sound away making it hard to hear a loco working hard even 3 coaches back.

The time I clocked to Shap on the return was 37min 32sec, very good but not a record I believe. The load of 11 vehicles (483t tare) included 119t of class 47 so this was a very heavy load and a good time. Interestingly the majority of the time was gained before Penrith and 22m 7s is, as far as I know, the fastest time to Penrith. Interesting the speed at Penrith was only 66 /67mph, well below that of other fast runs southbound. I suspect this indicates 6201 was being driven carefully conserving effort for the rest of the climb. It’s a pity WCRC don’t appear to have a generator coach which would have saved all this heartache but my view is that the diesel did not interfere and 6201 and Albert Seymour should be congratulated on an excellent performance.

 

Re: THE BORDERMAN

I sympathise with you No.7, for those of us who are interested in the performance side of main line steam, diesels in the formation cause a lot of headaches.
I have heard comments from a seasoned follower who was on the lineside near the top on the return, and was quite sure the 47 was pushing, but personally, from having heard a lineside recording, although the speed seems a little high considering the weight of the train and the relative lack of noise from the chimney, there really didnt sound anything audible from the 47 to indicate assistance.

 

Re: THE BORDERMAN

????

There are, as has been stated by MANY people in the know but seemingly never sinks in on this forum and drives me utterly over the wall, 3 conditions where a diesel can be assisiting with the propulsion of the train.

1. It is in the sectional appendix

2. It is prearranged at the planning stage and all crews are briefed that this is the case

3. The driver of the leading loco requests assistance.

The diesel driver CANNOT apply power at any other time and certainly not without the permission of the lead driver.

If the driver said they didn't then they didn't unless they just want a quiet life beacuse of the fuss people make of them doing their utmost to perform their job to the highest of their profession and cause the least inconvenience to the other trains that carry out the primary purpose of the railway, shifting passengers and goods from A to B as a form of transport and not an entertainment form. If the diesel does assist, then knowing the skills and pride of these crews there is a damn good reason for it

Sorry if this offends anyone but I for one am getting tired of this argument over and over again

 

Re: THE BORDERMAN

Just a couple of comments.
Firstly I thought this was quite a civilised discussion rather than an argument!
Secondly, and this is purely a thirst for knowledge, so dont take it the wrong way, when was it decided that a banker could only assist when requested by the driver on the train engine? 10 years ago it was quite common for a diesel to open up with the fellar up front having no prior knowledge.

 

Re: THE BORDERMAN

Ah, the LMS Club car me thinks, walked through that yesterday for the first time , what a wonderful ambiance. Thanks for the confirmation. I think all the evidence points to the diesel not assisting.

 

temp

I quite agree Ralph, what you say makes sense, what I was looking for was what the rule book says.
Having travelled on hundreds of main line steam trips, I have come across most scenarios, including the train driver remonstrating with the fella on the back when he pushed without prior aggrement, and also when the fella has apologised for pushing when it wasnt welcome, or expected.

 

Re: THE BORDERMAN

Just to add - I was at Lancaster on the southbound run and I did think that the diesel was very noisy, could just have been a noisy engine/exhaust though!

 

Re: THE BORDERMAN

I also timed this train and as a timer with 40 yrs experience firmly believed it was being pushed by the Cl 47 from the start at Carlisle to a point somewhere around Plumpton and then again from Clifton & Lowther to the old Shap station.
An increase of speed of 10 mph from 51 to 61 over the 7 miles or so up the 1:125 from Clifton to Shap Station in am timing just over 7 mins was quite extraordinary something I have never experienced before, speed normally falling over this section.

I spoke to both Paul Kane the diesel driver and Albert Seymour the steam loco driver on arrival at Preston. Paul assured me and seemingly everyone else there that he had done no pushing, Albert said being at the front, which he was, he would not know if the diesel driver had been pushing. I have great respect for both these railway men and absolutely no reason to disbelieve them. There was certainly no need to push as we stood for 25 minutes in Carnforth loop taking water before anything from the North passed us, so there was clearly nothing behind us.

It would be helpful if WCRC or Past Time Rail could clarify the matter once and for all and for me that would then be the end of it. If there was genuinely no pushing this must go down as one of the best climbs of Shap in the preservation era and appropriate credit should be given to Mr Seymour. If there was pushing then maybe the reason for it could be explained.

 

Re: THE BORDERMAN

I was in the middle of the train and personally couldn't tell whether the 47 was pushing or not. It was only during the water stop at Carnforth and after arrival at Preston, that I heard the claims that we had been pushed and accepted that this was the case.

However, having read some of the postings on here suggesting that passengers in the coach immediately in front of the 47 did not think we were being pushed and Paul Kane's assertion that he was not applying power, I now begin to wonder.

One suggestion seemed to be that if we were not being pushed then it was an amazing performance from 6201 which set me thinking about 6201's performance over Shap earlier this year with a heavier load and again with a 47 on the back. On that occasion, I, along with many of the "timers" etc, were in the rear coach immediately in front of the 47 and it was clear from the lack of noise that we were not being pushed and it was accepted as a phenomenal performance from Lizzie. I do wonder whether a similar excellent performance may have been overlooked on Saturday.

 

Re: THE BORDERMAN

I think you've answered the question as the only person who knows whether a shove was given is Paul Kane and he says he didn't. I know Andy Staite asked WCRC if they had been pushing and they diened it. Short of Paul Kane swearing the truth in a court of law I don't think we can get more. All the evidience from the rear of the train (3 independant reports from coaches A&B, plus one from the line side) pionts to no assistance so I think it's only fair to beleive Mr Kane.

 

Re: diesel on steam tours

Just to give some more lineside info. - reviewing my footage, I'm fairly certain the diesel wasn't pushing up Shap northbound due to the lack of any real noise. Plus, the marked deceleration of 6201 would suggest no diesel involvement. I was between Penrith and Clifton for the return, and this was the quietest the diesel was all day - not a sausage out of it. This concurs with what others have said.

In response to GWR4707 - I was also at Lancaster and have to agree that the noise from the 47 was significant to say the least.

 

Re: diesel on steam tours

At least I wasn't going mad!

One thought, I know the Pendolino in front was running late, with the obvious congestion this may have caused, was there something close behind that may have required them to make a swift start from Carnforth?

However, in light of all this, Lizzie looked and sounded great!

 

Re: THE BORDERMAN

That day in question regarding Lizzie was definitely unassisted, there is NO doubt over that what so ever. The two men on the footplate (yes two men - driver/inspector & fireman) proved that it could and can be done albeit not fast. Given the weight, conditions & dead diesel in tow it WAS a phenomenal performance by the two footplate crew!

Again Saturday's Northbound "Borderman" run was without any Diesel assistance and I do have that on really good authority - so stop doubting it please!

Bloody hell, some of you get a life and stop questioning the wisdom and the efforts of the crews, TOC's, RTO's etc, without them you would have no steam railtours!! We now live in the year 2007 were the Railway has changed (for good or bad) not 1957 - things have definitely changed and there is no going back I'm afraid. If you wish to travel by steam with guaranteed no Diesel in tow - go & support your local steam preserved line! ](*,) Rant over!!! :lol: :lol:

 

Re: diesel on steam tours

A thought I've been having...

A lot of the places we complain about diesel assistance, how many of these places would have been places with a resident banker in steam days? and therefore would have been assisted then as well as now, only today we have to take the banker with the train