Diesels on steam tours

Re: diesel on steam tours

True, but the banker would be a steam loco as well.

 

Re: diesel on steam tours

Hmmm

I knew that would be the response!

But it loses me how steam banking steam makes that much difference except in tour costs! Why is it fine to have steam banking but not a diesel? Its no knock to the loco's or crew's abilities, its doing what it would always have done

 

Re: diesel on steam tours

For once i agree with you SYM, i can see why people want steam because thats why we go on and support these tours. In most cases though it just isnt possible for steam bankers as well.

Alex

 

Re: diesel on steam tours

Just re read what I put, just to make it clearer yes I can see the appeal of steam banking, I just struggle with the idea of such a feature regularly!

 

Re: THE BORDERMAN

Well Mike Notely has analyzed the run and concluded it had to be Diesel assisted. I think that has to count as the 'official' view. I know that Mike is aware of all the claims from ToC and Crew that the climb was unassisted so I don't think he will have published his comments in Steam Railway without careful consideration. Whatever way you look at this it's a disappointing result as IF this truely was unassisted it appears it isn't going in the record books. If it WAS assisted then double poor show WCRC for pushing then denying it.

 

Re: diesel on steam tours

ermmmm , rivet countters?

come on people , its 2008 for christ sake , WE STILL HAVE STEAM ON THE MAINLINE... surly that out weighs having a diesel banker by miles .

 

Re: diesel on steam tours

No it does not.It is not as far as I am concerned a steam hauled main line train.It is a steam headed diesel assisted main line train and should be advertised as such from the outset.
There are no excuses.The job can be done with the right attitude prevailing.
Surely the main reason we have the diesels on the back is to cut down the possibility of heavy fines due to possible failures.
We pay a premium price for these trains and the TOC's should provide
what has been agreed to ,not what they think that they can get away with.

 

Re: diesel on steam tours

So what if the diesel on the back is dead, surely then thats not a "steam headed diesel assisted train"?

 

Re: diesel on steam tours

Right, for the people who have been debating whether 6201 was given any assistance up Shap, here is a sound recording I found on a website (It's about the third one down). I''ll leave you to make your own minds up.

http://www.steamsounds.org.uk/latest.html

 

Re: diesel on steam tours

In answer to Stepney 60 if the load is say 12 cars then with a diesel at the rear,and let us say it is dead,the load then becomes a heavy fifteen and is then is to heavy to run on a fast main line without causeing some sort of delay to other trains.Even with a Dutchess on the front you would not want to go up Shap with a dead diesel in the train.
No,by having the diesel in the train you are causeing problems from the outset.
With regard to the punters on the train I would agree that most of them wouldn't care what was on the front.But that is not the point,if you can't do the thing properly then you should not do it at all.
The recording proves that Mr Kane was pushing the train on that occasion.Very dissapointing.
I feel sorry for the support crew who provide a good engine for the job only to find that someone on the day decides it needs to be pushed.
You might as well have a cardboard cutout on the front.

 

Re: diesel on steam tours

But it's better the diesel assists than a steam train stalls on one of the busiest lines in the country? And given mainline steam without a diesel on fast main lines is increasingly difficult to work you are presumably prepared to stop steam on the "premier" routes (WCML, ECML, GWML, Bristol - Birmingham etc). If you really don't like a diesel on the back of a train which is 100% steam hauled, might I be so bold as to suggest a visit to your local heritage line? Or alternatively find a job working for a Railtour company or an engine support crew and working to help keep diesels off tours?

 

Re: diesel on steam tours

i just dont understand this . you say you dont want steam to be helped by a diesel ....

lets say all tours had a steam banker on the back for the whole day . not possible ,
lets say all tours had a diesel follow in the path behind - not possible , plus are you happy to pay £XX amount more?
lets say all tours had a steam banker in a siding - not possible you now have 2 paths to find plus timetable options plus £XX more to pay

with out the diesel on the back , steam would die over most of the country in the matter of days . lets take for instance even on a preserved line , frosty rails , wet rails , + a incline ....you have no diesel on the back becuse you know people will complain , in the end the engine slips . cant get going wait 45 mins for a diesel to come drag you out a cutting , people are going to love it

now lets say that its not a preserved line its actully i dounno , the surry hills ( now touch wood it never happens) but if an engine stalled on there and there was no diesel on the back , the service train behind would have already block the back end , and seeing as the line wouldnt be under prosestion theres no access to the front of the train . now are you willling to fork out many hundreds of pounds for fines? ........didnt think so .

that diesel on the back wasnt there to make the photographers go ewww and the people on board to say , we want out money back thats going to push up . its on there for issuance purposes. yes mainline steam locomotives are kept to a high standard of matiance the most modern units but there getting old and there gonna fail at some point

so i for one am happy to have a diesel on the back of a train if it gives me the confidence of not being stuck in the middle of no where .

im just waitting for someone to turn around and say " but its gonna spoil the day " no its not and dont say about how its not in the timetable or information about the tour becuse 99 out of 100 people will probuly know theres gonna be a diesel on the back at somepoint .

 

Re: diesel on steam tours

Palace gates for FS stop..... there is no way that the use of diesels on the back is going to change. I'm probably the only one prepared to stand up and say this but all this wingeing by you is just getting a pain in the butt, and its not going to get things changed ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)

 

Re: diesel on steam tours

The whole point of a Forum like this is for everyone to be able to speak there mind.There are certainly enough on here that try and enforce and I mean enforce there view on everyone else.
Surely this all boils down to money.There is money being made on these trips and to stop the job would loose the TOCs a lot of their profit.It is unfair what is going on at present and it should stop.
If the trains were advertised as diesel assisted I would go away and you would not here from me again.Until it happens I will continue to fight my corner.

 

Re: diesel on steam tours

True

True

If done right and they sell out and they don't incur delay penalties then there is a small return to be made but a lot of tours make little money.

Not true

Has no one told you - life is unfair.

 

Re: diesel on steam tours

I notice, palace gates, that you politely ignored my suggestion you went and actually got your hands dirty working with TOCs or loco groups, how easy it is to sit and lecture from an armchair, fortunately people who do that tend not to be taken any notice of whatsoever. You clearly have no idea what goes into running a mainline railtour and believe TOCs are simply sticking diesels on the back in order to deliberately wind you up. What a pathetic attitude to have I may say. If we're going to argue about something as unimportant as this we may as well give up now and retire our engines to the local heritage railway. Diesels are a fact of life on the modern railway if we seriously want to keep steam running.

Still not happy? I give an example. Last October 30777 stalling on Honiton bank. No diesel present, as per your wishes, the train sat there for nearly an hour, holding up every service train in the local area on a busy route. Fortunately, SWT don't have a particularly bad attitude when it comes to steam, but what if it had happened on a route operated by FGW? What if it had happened on the Lickey and held up half a dozen Voyagers and freights? If the diesel had been there the train could have got going again virtually instantly. I know this from experience after 45407 on the Sussex Explorer when she had to be assisted by the 37 at Pulborough, it meant we kept vaguely to time and didn't hold up horrendously any service train which was following us. Thus not incurring huge fines from NR which would cause a big dent in the TOCs supposed profits.

Mainline steam is not just something for people to go on and remember their childhood to the minutest detail. It's a business. And some people need to realise this sooner rather than later.

 

Re: diesel on steam tours

...but would 45407 have needed assistance had it not had an additional 100 tons of diesel locomotive on the back of the train?

 

Re: diesel on steam tours

I don't know, you don't know, no-one knows. The point being if she had stopped and didn't have a diesel on the back (much like 30777) then we would have been stymied. Bear in mind speed restriction, leaf fall and wet rails from rain it's not beyond the realms of possibility that she might have struggled, if not stopped then low speed all the way up the hill to Adversane holding up the following service train, while the diesel ensured we didn't have that and provided enough oomph to get us up the hill at a decent speed

 

Re: diesel on steam tours

A very valid point.

I can fully sympathise with the views expressed in this thread…. If you have parted with a large sum of money to travel on a steam hauled tour, the last thing you want to see is a dead diesel stuck on the rear of the train.
Most of the time they are towed around dead which obviously increases the load and in my opinion must also increase the likelihood of failure up front…
That said, they do play a vital role on certain tours and therefore they become the lesser of two evils?

For the purists among us, this weekends Cotton Mill will not feature a diesel loco in any sense... other than stock delivery! (unless something goes terribly wrong of course! 8-[ )