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Dominion of Canada and Potential Disposal Story/Rumour

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by 242A1, Oct 15, 2018.

  1. 242A1

    242A1 Member

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    Given the impending loss from the list of active locomotives of 60009 the chance of another A4 becoming available is surely one of those events that must be too good to be true. However if, a very big if, 4489 were to become available on the market though it would undoubtedly create a great deal of interest and probably find a buyer what would be the best outcome both for the engine and the enthusiast body at large.

    For me the ideal would be not for the engine becoming a part of a wealthy individual's trainset but would far rather have someone more in the vein of John Cameron come along if that were possible. I don't believe a
    that any preserved line could manage to fund a purchase even if they might wish to and it would probably not be the best use of resources even if one were to feel tempted.

    I am raising this because the plinth is beginning to look a less safe option than some might believe. So, what do other members understand to be going on and what are your views on what might prove to be the best in terms of potential outcomes?
     
  2. class8mikado

    class8mikado Member

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    All speculative, best outcome for me would be national collection and the NRM actual running it, but at the same time its probably in a more original condition and therefore a more valid 'Exhibit' than Mallard. It would be nice if she we're offered 'first Dibbs ' to the NRM but in this day and age one would expect an auction with the reserve set above the scrap value to discourage a scrap dealer.
    There was some consternation that Scotsman would end up ' Abroad' and therefore the nation / individuals dug into their respective pockets to support the NRM bid... the NRM will know how founded those fears actually were, but cant see as much enthusiasm from the general public for 4489 so could the enthusiast community raise the at least 6 figure sum ?
     
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  3. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

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    I posted this, in reply on the 60009 thread:
    Is there any reason why Exporail in Canada would want to get rid of 4489/60010? It was well received back from York after cosmetic restoration. What of the other three that are still in the UK, aren't they more likely candidates?
     
  4. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Part of the furniture

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    Despite what SR are so desperate to perpetuate as part of their present 'issues' with the NRM, museums have very stringent disposal policies which would need to be followed, thus I would be very surprised to see DoC come to open commercial market. I would also suspect there will be something in the original 'gift' which saw her transferred over to Canada regarding potential disposal protocol?

    Having read the SR piece it appears somewhat sensationalist to say the least and adding 5+5 to make 27, not saying it won't happen but possibly going after the present custodians in writing is not the best idea at a time when opportunities possibly do exist but would need a delicacy to deliver.
     
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  5. Jimc

    Jimc Well-Known Member

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    Museums change policy... Sometimes they dispose of things, eg locomotives, that they have had for a very long time.

    If I were in charge of the Canadian museum and I were asked "We need space. So tell me, what connection has this item got to do with Canada other than the name" I' not sure I would have a good answer.
     
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  6. 242A1

    242A1 Member

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    Why? 4498/60007 is well looked after by the society that owns and is responsible it, 4468 is museum plinthed (though in this day and age the value and longterm security of this particular arrangement could be seen as under threat but probably not in this instance - yet) and 4464/60019 is in private storage in an old toy factory. Museums keep on feeling the need to redefine themselves, they change their priorities, blow with the wind of fashion and are always short of money.
    The LSWR T3 ought to be an indicator with respect to the way that the one of the streams of thought happens to be flowing in the museum world today.
     
  7. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Resident of Nat Pres

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    If the Canadian museum has any doubts over the suitability of 4489 then let's bring her home.
     
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  8. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Part of the furniture Friend

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    One on to a plinth, one off?

    However... this is still in the realms of conjecture and fantasy, surely?
     
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  9. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Resident of Nat Pres

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    This is NP so par for the course. :)
     
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  10. 240P15

    240P15 Member

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    I`m not any expert but I guess it`s not the purchase of the locomotive itself that is most expensive , but to have it in operational condition.

    Maybe a silly thought but if it come back to her birthplace it might be possible to transform it to the lost "Silver Link"? (if that could create more interest for enthusiasts?)
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018
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  11. DismalChips

    DismalChips Member

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    That's thing, isn't it? Whoever buys it is on the hook for a potentially costly overhaul.

    Weren't there rumours around the time of the Great Gathering that decent offers had been made (and rebuffed) on the two overseas A4s? I'd imagine they haven't gone away.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
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  12. Sawdust

    Sawdust Member

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    I'm sure there are other individuals out there, who would like an A4 other than those named.

    I'd stand back and see what develops, there is no point speculating. However I can't see the Science Museum (which is what the NRM is these days), wanting a second A4.

    Sawdust.
     
  13. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Part of the furniture

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    Whoever they were would be the most likely buyers I suggest, I can't see Mr Hosking buying another A4, I certainly can't see why the NRM would want it, and the only LNER heritage railway that could even conider the possibility already has an A4 based there anyway. I wonder if those mystery buyers were interested in making it operational or just wanted it as an expensive ornament...
     
  14. DismalChips

    DismalChips Member

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    Well, quite. If you have one mothballed, why acquire another? Unless you're hoping for economies of scale on overhauls.
     
  15. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Part of the furniture Friend

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    Bang on the money there, Knut: buying a locomotive is the easy bit - it gets much more expensive from that point onwards!

    Some time ago I spoke to the owner of 1212 and the companion trailer car, and he told me the costs involved.

    With that knowledge I doubt I'd even buy a wagon, never mind a locomotive! :eek:
     
  16. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    I've read the SR report and I've tweeted to Steve Davies a few questions, and it appears that the rumour is well founded. Both it and Waddon have been shunted out of the main exhibition halls and back into the side shed. This is the part open air one in which DoC originally deteriorated. They are now being considered as part of a overall review, and disposal has not been ruled out.

    The issue is not so much one of the ownership that is the most concerning, but the fact that a very well looked after and well restored locomotive has been taken off main display and by doing so, may compromise the incredible finish that was applied.

    Why does a railway exhibit have to be specifically about Canada, any more so than the Chinese engine, or the bullet train, has to do with our National Railway Museum? That's a rather narrow minded view. Should we immediately demand to send all of the foreign engines home because they are not British? Of course not.

    With just a little bit of thought you can see how Dominion of Canada can be both relevant and very much desirable as an exhibit. She represents an era in locomotive development abroad that provides a stark contrast to the Canadian engines built around the same time. Both in presentation and engineering. She represents, further, one of a class of which she is sister to the world record holder - a big deal. She was also originally a gift - as was the finish on the locomotive, in return for the short term loan - and much money, private and public in the UK, went into making her what she is today. There are stories behind these things, if done well that add value to the museum.

    I speak as someone who saw her in the 90s in BR dark green and rust in that shed, together with my late uncle (Canadian, British born, air and rail engineer and lover of A4s). I think he'd be sad to see history repeating itself.

    If the opportunity came up to purchase her and remove back to the UK, I am all for it. Perhaps a home for her for permanent display in London from which she worked. It is a shame there is no permanent space at London King's Cross to display her, because that would be ideal. She wouldn't duplicate Mallard up at the NRM and she'd be somewhere relevant to her story and our shared history.
     
  17. huochemi

    huochemi Member Friend

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    They have already disposed of bits of 60010 of course e.g. the standard chime whistle, front numberplate and the external double chimney, through auction in this country.
    I agree but the NRM of course has form i.e. the unfortunate disposal of the French compound loco, great for the French, but rather more valuable to the story of steam loco history than another A4.
     
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  18. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    I too lament the compounds passing. I regret that we could not have saved Argentina for the national collection, too, given her own countrymen’s desire to eliminate it from history.
     
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  19. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

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    If there is a vital need for another A4, then those pushing for it could always set up a 'new build' project. Ex LNER types seem to be a favourite new build it seems. :)
     
  20. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Part of the furniture Staff Member Moderator

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    when she went back after the great goodbye it was reported there was money on the table to buy her . Whether that cash remains is still to be seen

    An A4 is probably one of the most desirable main line loco's so if she were to be offered I would expect there to be suitors for her
     

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