Don't Mention the War POLL.

I suppose an alternative would be an 'Allo Allo' weekend, where you could parody the whole thing, as the BBC found out....

Find the 'fallen Maddona with the big bo**ies'..... Vicky Michelle look a like contest....

As for SS uniforms, there was a certain lady who wore one, and she had my undivided attention........

Ian

 

Spot on James Q. I see nobody has mentioned the monies these things make ,apart from myself .The ones I have attended have flypasts sales stands Veterans on stalls talking of their times in ww11 and after.Dads Army guys allo allo people whats wrong with that.These fetch in youngsters who are facinated by the stories ,these are young folk who the preservation movement needs .

 

I have mentioned the economic value of such events too.

Because of the nature of such events a lot of people visit who re-enact informally, i.e. just turn up off their own bat in kit and wander round enjoying the ambience for the day. Unfortunately it is generally these people who render events such a surreal pastiche and have no real thought for what they are doing and whether it's authentic (mobile phones, digital cameras etc.) Generally, I would guess that it is visitors such as these who turn up in horrifically inappropriate garb - Black SS, Hermann Goering lookalike etc.

I'm involved in English Civil War re-enactment, in the Sealed Knot Society, which whilst not as hot on authenticity as others has gotten a lot better in the last 10 years. People doing unauthentic things are politely suggested to do it out of sight - in a tent, on the plastic campsite etc. Obviously with the number of informal re-enactors who turn up and the lack of hiding places on a railway this would be hard to achieve at a railway 40s event, but perhaps a crackdown on casual re-enactors is called for? Or at least a request that they wear Allied uniforms only, or even 40s civilian wear only - then the military representations can be organised much more carefully, a more authentic image presented.

 

A crackdown on casual re-enactors? Good heavens man, maintain some perspective.

 

Sorry came across as a touch more emotive than I meant, I was only pondering out loud. I was thinking more along the lines of polite requests in advertisements etc. for people to not turn up casually in Axis uniforms (allowing those genuine re-enactors required for the battle display to put on a professional display in a given area), and perhaps in 40s civvies only. How much effect this would have is a moot point.

But points raised about the authenticity of events when truly ancient men are walking round dressed as sailors, and people in clothes of the time happily munch on their burger whilst chatting on a mobile are entirely valid.

 

That word "authenticity" does get bandied about willy nilly doesn't it.
No 1940s event can hope to be authentic. So much has changed since the 1940s and many of the locos as well as much of the rolling stock at such events are not of wartime vintage. If having casual visitors dressing up in period clothes but touting modern cameras, phones etc. is a problem then so is the general public who come dressed in modern attire. IMHO it's a fun weekend where "professional" re-enactors can portray something of what it was like in WW2 and others can come along, dressed up or not, to enjoy themselves. If we are going to get hung up on authenticity then we may as well stop doing these events and many others things in the heritage railway movement and that would be plain daft.

 

Recent posts remind me of a 'War Weekend' event not so long ago where I worked a guard's turn. Two members of station staff had to assist one elderly gentleman out of the train while I stood on the platform holding his walking stick. The gentleman was dressed in a WW2 officers uniform of the Parachute Regiment !!!

Chris

 

Nice one. Try telling him he can't wear his uniform.

 

Just trying to play devil's advocate gents, my previous posts make clear my opinions on authenticity and the extent to which it may be achieved.

 

Kind of reminds me of an interesting guy I met at Wolsztyn once back in 2008.
Sat on the top of the tender ty1 at the shed during the parade, with a German guy, we were discussing 5521.
The German mentioned where he was from and asked if we'd been (think it was Leipzig), we both replied yes (in my case a few years ago), the other english guy said yes but it was in the 1940's.
The German replied wow, what did you think of it, to which he replied "I don't know I only saw it form the air"... conversation ended.
I was stunned as well, as he didn't look much older than mid60's and was very able.. he replied he remembered seeing 10000 and 10001 shortly after delivery, and details about riding in them, plus a whole bunch of stories of the LMS we talked for some time... I did have to ask how old he was and he replied....87... and he still was very able to manoeuvre himself on and off the locomotive very ably !

 

Lest we Forget Monday is the 6th of June

 

It is indeed, one of the great moments in history.

 

This one is in Poland.

 

Good grief.

 

Well - with all due respect - Poland was invaded and some dreadful atrocities visited on it, both in wartime and in the ensuing peace. They have every right to reflect on the unvarnished truth!

 

During a visit to Wolzstyn in 1990, a film crew was at work. It was a WW2 film and swastikas were everywhere on the rolling stock.

 

And believe me they do ! Which has to be said isnt all anti-German, in fact for Germany they are quite forgiving, from a Poles point of view, Germany invaded, (but so have the Swedish, the Hungarians, The Turks and Prussians the country even dissapeared for a 100 years and was only one the map 21 years before WW2 started), it was the Jews living in Poland who suffered more than the Poles..

There's a lot of Anti-British in Poland, as it was the Russians who liberated them from the Germans.. but they blame the British for selling them to the Soviets who, and in Polish view they blame for far more damage to their people and country until 1989...including in the late 1940's forcing half the population to leave Polish territory claimed for Russia (today read as West Ukraine / Belarus / Lithuania).. and forced them West leaving everything behind to occupy land taken from Germany after the war including Poznan / Wolsztyn / Wroclaw, which used to be Posen, Wollstein and Breslau.. which is why today, Poland does not recognise Auschwitz camp as Polish territory, but "Nazi German" as it was never part of historical Poland until after the war.. and why so many of PKP's steam fleet had German roots (including BR 03 4-6-2 pacifics, BR38 4-6-0, BR 24 2-6-0s etc etc, not just redundant BR 52 2-10-0s).

For those interested in History Stalag Luft 3 (aka the RAF camp in "The Great Escape") is between Poznan and Wroclaw.. though during WW2 it was firmly in Germany borders.

Raw.. maybe but as Tbird says.. they say it as they see it, lived it, breathed it until 20 years ago, not how we watch it on TV for the last 60 years.

For rolling history see the preserved operational 2-10-0 BR 58 311 in Germany.. it's life was entirely German based, including being shedded around Katowice, including Auschwitz and moved east in 1945 to avoid capture from the Russians.

 

I'm only making one post here as this topic always turns into a can of worms, but I seem to pick up on the fact that in the main, the worry is that these events are perceived by the public as an authentic account of history, which would certainly be offensive to those who lived through the period in question. Maybe it would be better if the mock battles were marketed as 'What If?' at such events, thus ensuring that they are explicitly perceived as entertainment rather than a corruption of fact. I don't mind mock-battle groups (note I have not used the term re-enactors) at 1940s events, as long as it is marketed properly as historical fiction, and not fact.

 

So instead of watching a bit of WW2 "bunkum" at a heritage railway, the public go home and watch Holywood's version of it on the TV.

 

god forbid get on a plane, train or car and see where it really was... and once youve traveled at 50mph for 12 hours and realized youve not gone very far, but 60 years ago these guys fought at approx 5mph.. get a real idea of it... we in europe are lucky in respect to history in that we can go see it.. in our own country and across europe, we dont need a 5500 mile flight or Hollywood to appreciate it.

Seeing German steam in europe, in several countries then watching a "oh what a lovely war" and "dads's army" days at preserved railways with Blue and Grey Mark Ones... just isnt the same thing.. it's actually degrading and somewhat insulting, in my opinion.

What would the ELR say if someone rolled up with a BR52 2-10-0 on a low loader dressed as above for a Regensburg day out ?..
perhaps it's be more welcome if it had a Coke logo on instead... after all that's how coke came to prominence in this country and Germany.

Incidentally this product of Manchester also resides in the same place... doesnt that design (and it's tender) remind you of something very english ?