Extensions - a snare and a delusion?

The only USP a heritage railway can truly provide to the non-enthusiast public is location and scenery.

 

Having experience of both narrow and std gauge, take it from me the rail wear issue is less pronounced on the latter. In part i think this is because the formation tends to be better and the curves less pronounced (yes I realise this doesn't apply to all and the WSR in particular has some very nasty curves with hideous rail and wheel wear as a result).

The use of class 7 or 8 locos seems to have little or no additional impact on the track provided it is well maintained and again this is about the formation and drainage as much as anything. Again this doesn't apply to some lines where the formation is historically poorer or the curves tighter, but in general.

You're right that the biggest boiler replaced is of terrier size, but given the amount being spent on some boilers now, the step from repair to replacement is not an enormous one, and depends more on the availability of funding for that particular loco, and its ownership. The latter, and the fact that many are not owned by the company that operates them, is likely in my opinion to be the biggest restriction on the replacement of boilers. There is one medium size loco I am very familiar with that might well be having a new boiler fitted right now if the ownership situation were different.

 

I think a big determinant is whether a particular loco has leading and trailing wheels to help guide it round corners (bearing in mind on most lines, locos spend half their time running backwards). Hence another reason why BR standard tank engines are favoured on preserved lines, and probably favoured slightly more than their tender-engine equivalents. "Big" engines (by which I mean typically class 7 upwards) are not ideal for preserved line use, but at low speed, it has more to do with running costs and maintenance costs of what are big complicated machines, rather than increased stress on the p/way and infrastructure, which will be low at the low speeds typical on preserved lines.

With regard extensions more generally: Had my first loco trip up the Bluebell NEP yesterday, and though this is just anecdotal and a single data point, arriving into EG ready for the 12 noon departure (which was the second departure of the day from EG), I have never seen a Bluebell platform so crowded, certainly not on a normal running day. Similarly, there were also a lot of people waiting to get on the 5pm departure (the last of the day) back to SP, whereas in previous years the last departure was often very quiet. OK, so there is still a novelty factor, but it does look like having a destination in a real town, rather than the middle of nowhere, could well have a transforming impact on passenger numbers. (SP car park was also full, so - again anecdotally - it doesn't look like those passengers at EG are simply ones who previously would have started at SP, translocated).

So an extension that means you actually have a presence "somewhere" (a mainline rail connection; or into a sizeable town; or adjacent to a big tourist draw) rather than "nowhere" (cf East Grinstead vs Kingscote) seems a real win. Extending from "nowhere" to "nowhere" seems a harder sell, unless it is the first stage in a more ambitious extension (for example, the first stage of the Bluebell extension to EG was to run shuttles to Horsted House Farm, and the second stage to a run-round loop with no platform at West Hoathly; it was only when we got to Kingscote that a passenger coiuld actually alight somewhere on the Northern extension).

I think there is also an optimum length from a visitor point of view, especially as fares will not tend to scale linearly with distance. (Shorter lines tend to cost more per mile than longer ones: a day rover on the NYMR is £18 for 18 miles, i.e. 50p per mile if you do a single round trip; the East Somerset Railway is £9 for 2.5 miles, i.e. £1.80 per mile if you do a single round trip, though obviously you would have time to do more if you had a day rover). Somewhere round 1.5 to 2.5 hours for a round trip feels about right. Below that and you can feel a bit short-changed unless there is some other point (scenery, ambience, C&W etc) that really makes the journey really special. Above about 2.5 hours and it can feel like a bit of an endurance event, especially if you have very young children (though again, scenery etc will compensate, as can the ability to break your journey at an attractive station).

Tom

 

Tom

Glad to hear business is good. The test will come when it is no longer a novelty and you still have Freshfield Bank to attend to!
Best wishes

Paul

 

The Severn Valley is fortunate in that it does run from "somewhere" to "somewhere", with the bias being Kidderminster to Bridgnorth. KDR has good car-parking, and there is relatively easy access to an attractive market town (Bridgnorth) at the other end, or a stop along the way at the Engine House at Highley. To my mind, the length of the SVR is about right, a stop at Highley and a walk into Bridgnorth pretty much takes up a full day, given when services start and the transit time.
A long-term discussion topic that keeps cropping up on the svr forum is the possible extension of the line to the Ironbridge Gorge, with its museums complex. Quite apart from the cost, and such issues as housing built over the trackbed, road conversion, and the ever-present geological problems of land alongside the river Severn, such an extension would fundamentally alter the nature of the SVR, in that if it were to be seen as an extended "park-and-ride" to the World Heritage sites at Ironbridge, than the rest of the journey would only be of passing interest, and demand something like a frequent DMU service, and lower fares.
The Bluebell I think were right to persist with their admittedly very expensive objective of reaching EG, because it does provide visitors from the southern end of the line with a "somewhere" destination, rather than an out and back train ride. Maybe the slight downside is that if this new passenger flow remains popular after the novelty has worn off, there will need to be a commitment to providing adequate train lengths to carry those passengers in comfort. There have been times on the SVR where motive power considerations forced the running of short formations, with the attendant overcrowding at times.

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Veering slightly off topic but with reference to the question of new boilers - what is defined by a new boiler? Is it the complete unit of boiler and firebox ready to go, is it the barrel of the boiler or the barrel, tubeplates and throatplate with tubes? the reason i ask is that inner and outer 'boxes have been replaced as have foundation rings. Throatplates have also been produced and fitted to existing units. Boiler sections have also been rolled (80098 springs to mind). The question of producing a new boiler has in effect been answered. It has been done both as a complete unit for the terriers, and in component form for larger machines. In the road steam world completed boilers and fireboxes are regularly produced for traction engines and steam rollers. A guy I work with owns a Sentinel Steam lorry which has a vertical multitube high pressure boiler. These have an outer wrapper and an inner wrapper with the firebox being in the middle space. He and his brother have owned the S4 for many years and it is well known on the rally circuit but the boiler got to the point where it was in his words 'life-expired' (err maybe not quite so polite thinking about it!). The situation they found themselves in was that if they replaced the boiler as a complete unit in one go it was regarded as a new item and had to go through a massive and expensive paperwork exercise (design approval and CE marking etc) so what they did was dismantle it and replace the inner wrapper, rebuild it completely, get it inspected and certified with both hydraulic and steam tests and then dismantled it again and replaced the outer wrapper. A vast amount of work but much less hassle than going through the design and certification hoops.

Extensions to railways? you cannot generalise really. If a railway is 300 yards long an extension is essential. If it wants to extend to 40 miles its a no-no. There must be an optimum length that interests the volunteers and stretches the locos but doesn't result in families being bored rigid. With few exceptions such as the SVR and NYMR both of which have many attractions en-route this is going to be 7 - 11 or so miles. As has been suggested earlier maintenance of infrastructure is the huge obstacle of many lines as structures that are over 100 years old gradually need massive reconstruction or replacement. One can only wonder what will happen if the spectacular iron bridge on the SVR needs replacement or the viaduct at Imberhorne on the Bluebell?

 

The NYMR is an interesting case of an extension - it's entry to Whitby involved virtually no infrastructure work (a little of that is coming now that the extension has proved itself to be of value) but a lot of paperwork and regulations that have cascaded backwards onto the NYMR itself. The passenger figures have definitely soared but so have costs and it has arguably been something of a a poisoned chalice, in terms of the extra resources and strains on staff and volunteers. It was originally "sold" to the NYMR membership as the solution to generating the extra income to spend on the NYMR's own infrastructure but in practice this has not happened, although to be fair we have had the world financial meltdown and ensuing recession to contend with for much of the period in question.

Whitby, however, is the destination that passengers want to travel to now and a reversion to terminating at Grosmont would definitely be a retrograde step, the challenge is to cut the cost of servicing Whitby whilst providing an adequate level of service

 

I think heritage aspects too - old engines, carriages, stations, uniforms, ambience -travel as grandparents did (or even great grandparents, I suppose for younger families)

 

I think it's not just line and train ride length, but the "day-out" factor. Most SVR passengers start at Kidderminster. There are en route, a Georgian riverside town at Bewdley, riverside walks and pubs at Arley, the Engine House, the Country Park and the river at Highley, riverside walks, pubs and the ferry at Hampton Loade and the town with shops restaurants, pubs and the Saturday market at Bridgnorth.

A real value for money full day out which can be repeated on many occasions

 

The "somewhere to somewhere" point is a good one. The Glos Warks, for example currently runs from "nowhere to nowhere" with Toddington to Cheltenham Racecourse, which will be vastly improved when it reaches Broadway - though I suspect there will be car parking problems there. If they press on to Honeybourne just for the sake of a mainline connection, then that will definitely put their northern/eastern terminus back into the nowhere category.

 

Michael: ( re your post next but last above, ie things to do around the SVR stations) Yes, I absolutely agree.More than enought to keep people "in the valley" for the day. Hence I do wonder why the "Ironbridge extension" subject keeps cropping up in the other place.

On the subject of how to enjoy the countryside from the intermediate stations on the SVR, ( but might be relevent to other heritage lines as well) maybe the SVR Marketing people need to beef up the information available to our passengers. A couple of years ago I passed a folder of information to our then marketing manager, Mr Mee I think it was. The folder came from the Kent & East Sussex, and had been put together as a joint tourism effort by the railway and Tenterden Town Council. From each station there was a suggested walk, which tended to go to another attraction, even if only a tea room, and the walk terminated at another station. An extract of the OS map was included, directions, and "difficulty" rating. There were in all about six walks. I thought it was a superb marketing tool, and one we ( the SVR) could maybe copy. I think we do sell individual leaflets for each station and local walks? Maybe other heritage lines are already offering this information? NYMR and WSR being obvious possibles.

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61624 mentions the NYMR and Whitby. That running over NR lines uniquely gives them a "somewhere" destination, but I suppose the challenge is to contain the costs. Both motive power and rolling stock has to be certified to run from Grosmont to Whitby, and you have increased mileage, and greater demands on both crews and motive power.

 

Excellent idea - and builds on the "value for money" approach. We need to move on from "£40 for a train ride for 4" to "£40 for a full and varied day out for 4". Trouble is, we as enthusiasts tend to think that a steam train ride is all that is needed.

 

Indeed, and as we are aware, apart from Galas and the like, we--the enthusiast--is in the minority, and the marketing effort should be to offer as you say " a full day out" for the non-enthusiast family.

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I disagree - these are expected but are not a railway's USP - after all, to the punter Oakworth probably isn't a great deal different to Highley.

Bus shelters and Pacers wouldn't cut it, obviously, but you only have to look at the PDSR's "bare bones" heritage operation to see that a lot of it isn't noticed by much of the public. That isn't to say that it shouldn't be there - on the contrary, many railways tacitly take on a "living history museum" mentality, and the "authentic" appearance of a railway will attract volunteers and enthusiasts - just that it is a pleasant addition to the bare bones of the business.

 

My point was that they are a generic USP for heritage railways. I don't think that non-enthusiast passengers go through a debate "Shall we go to the the SVR or the KWVR? It's more like "Shall we go to the SVR or the Safari Park?"

 

I think you are missing something here and, although it has been previously pointed out several times, the SVR continue to miss it too.

The "something" is the ability to ride in prenationalisation - even wooden bodied - rolling stock. This can be an experience beyond that offered by your Mk1, useful though they are.

Our visitors spend quite a lot of time riding so this is an important USP on the valley. This was reinforced to me when at Kidderminster a while ago as loco crew I got talking to a non enthusiast member of the public who was bowled over by the notion that he could actually travel in a wooden bodied coach nowadays. (in this case a Gresley). He was even more impressed when I showed him GNR coach 2701 which is a real time piece. Why do we not make more of that?

It is a seriously deficient marketing cop out to assume that all non railway enthusiast visitors are clueless & uninterested in the detail of the railway itself.

 

For many smaller railways, the problem is one of availability of the relevant rolling stock on a regular basis. It goes without saying that wooden-bodied stock is not only more labour-intensive and more expensive to restore, but there is perhaps understandably a reluctance to use it outside of "high days and holy days" to reduce wear and tear. For example, I cannot imagine many owners being willing to allow use of rare coaches on "Thomas" weekends and Santa specials as unfortunately many passengers would allow their offspring to stand on the seats and tables, and put ice-cream marks all over the shop. You only have to travel on the public railway to see that, regrettably, a good number of people have little respect for the upholstery. Mark 1 TSO's may be anathema to many of us but in these cases they really come into their own.

I do agree that it is a mistake to assume that the "average" family group lack interest in the minutiae. Indeed, it is often good attention to detail which makes their experience memorable, and not only attracts the same family back but even better the others with whom they share the experience later.

 

A lot of it might be in surprising the average visitor, or advertising about it beforehand - as people like the gentleman mentioned above did not know about the wooden bodied coaches in advance. Things like milk churns and baggage on the platform often get a comment when I'm eavesdropping on members of the public - all that kind of stuff which 'you just don't see any more'.

I think for a lot of people, what's on TV at the moment always helps - people probably want to travel on the steam train 'Just like in Downton' right now, while when SPR and 'Band of Brothers' came out I imagine the interest in 1940s weekends crept up substantially (As did the plethora of films set in WW2).

 

Did you notice that the Kingston Flyer is $NZ60 for a return trip of 8 miles each way? I made mental comparisons with the SVR and decided that, at £2-12 a mile I would settle for photographs.