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Fire at Mid Hants

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by Selsig, Jul 26, 2010.

  1. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I have to disagree with your stance on this and agree with Breva. Worthwhile discussion can provide a lot of info for those who are concerned that they might have a potentially similar situation (and that includes me). There must be lessons to be learned from it.

    People discuss things in the mess rooms, in the pub and anywhere else where two or more people get together. Do you also say to them that they shouldn't discuss it because its been fully dealt with by others or has nothing to do with them? This Forum is no different from mess room discussion and the like, except that it enables people to chat outside the boundaries of four walls and maybe thousands of miles apart. Yes, there might be some plonkers taking part and silly ideas mentioned (perhaps including me and my thoughts) but that is no different from most places where people get together.
     
  2. 46118

    46118 Part of the furniture

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    Steve, you have a PM.
     
  3. John Webb

    John Webb Member

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    I agree that if there is a known cause and there are reasons why the fire spread then it would be useful for similar establishments on other preserved lines to know these factors in order to take steps to stop it happening to them. (I speak as someone involved in fire safety matters for some forty years.) But it is, in the end, a matter for the Mid-Hants Railway to decide whether or not to release detailed information.

    I would like to suggest that as the Heritage Railway Association has a fire advisor, that organisation might be a suitable communications link for MHR to pass on some details to fellow preservationists.
     
  4. cct man

    cct man Part of the furniture

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    Your point is taken and noted John.

    However as I said earlier, not even the insurance assessors know how the fire started which is why in this case we should leave it at that.

    best regards:

    Chris:
     
  5. Breva

    Breva Well-Known Member

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    Speaking theoretically then, what does the forum suggest for the following situation:

    I'm varnishing in a wooden bodied carriage in a shed. A lamp falls over and ignites the varnish. The carriage starts to burn, not yet the shed.

    Open or close the shed doors, and why?
     
  6. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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    This discussion has taken place once on this thread so could I politely suggest that if you haven't already done so you take a look back through it as opinions vary on your question as to what is the correct thing to do. Some of the answers are surprising when it comes to fire protection but they do utimately make sense when you think about it. I am talking only about the question you have posted "theoretically" by the way!!!
     
  7. Breva

    Breva Well-Known Member

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    I re-read the thread but other than a discussion about sprinklers can't find anything about what to do if fire breaks out. I did read that the fire was discovered 20 mins after work stopped, by which time it must have been well lit, unfortunately. So presumably no one there when it actually started. I still wonder whether one should open or close the doors. Both have their pros and cons. Guess I'll have to ask a fireman, if I ever meet one.
     
  8. 73129

    73129 Part of the furniture

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    I took this photo today and I hope it shows everyone how near to completion the boiler and C/W shop is. The only info I can add to this is the concrete floor is about ready to be poured. The metal wiring has been put into place to allow the concrete to be poured.
     
  9. 46118

    46118 Part of the furniture

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    Did the contractors manage to lay the concrete floor in the carriage shed before the latest severe weather? Are they on track ( no pun intended) to hand over the completed facility in February?
     
  10. cct man

    cct man Part of the furniture

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    No the concrete has not been laid yet though the formers , the mesh etc is all in place ready to pour the concrete.

    The contracters have been busy on replacement of cladding on the old shed in the meantime so with my builders hat on I would say that like for like I would say that no time has been lost nor gained.

    A happy new year to everyone.

    Regards
    Chris:
     
  11. John Webb

    John Webb Member

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    If a fire is discovered in a room/building then it is best to shut, or keep shut, any doors into that area (the 'Fire Compartment') to
    (a) limit the spread of the hot gases and flames to other parts of the building;
    (b) limit the amount of fresh air (and the oxygen it carries) getting into the fire compartment which would sustain the fire.
    The problem with a large industrial-type building is that having a large volume of air inside, keeping the doors shut is not as effective in reducing fire spread within the compartment as with smaller buildings or rooms. There is a good deal in favour of, at the least, installing roof vents that open in the event of a fire to release the hot gases to help limit the fire spread and the build-up of heat. It also assists the Fire Service to gain access to extinguish the fire by keeping smoke and heat at a high level.
    Hope this helps,
    John Webb (retired senior scientific officer, Fire Research Station)
     
  12. 46118

    46118 Part of the furniture

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    Re new shed construction: Thanks Chris; Appreciated.

    Re the comments under b) above, it was noticeable from images at the time of the fire how smoke and presumably heat travelled along the inside of the roof apex and vented out at the far end of the boiler shop.
    By contrast,the Kidderminster SVR carriage shed, which is one-fifth of a mile long does have automatic roof vents at intervals so that hopefully the products of combustion are vented up and out, rather than travelling along a line of carriages in the shed. Perish the thought that the system is ever put to the test.

    46118
     
  13. Breva

    Breva Well-Known Member

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    Thank you John, this is the sort of comment I was hoping to find.
    In my view, surely it would be better to open the doors, so that the fire brigade can get at the fire? I think mostly it is not the shed that is burning, but the contents on the floor i.e. the vehicles. If you shut the doors, you also generate an explosive mixture of gases inside. You can of course suggest vents in the roof, but in practice most of us work in sheds without such luxuries.
    In the two cases of which I am aware - see this link for a shed fire at the STAR museum line in Holland:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aAr52-Efps
    ...the fire brigade seems to have been reduced to pouring water down the hole in the roof created by the fire. That doesn't strike me as very efficient.
    Surely it would be better if they were able to get at the source of the fire itself, i.e. from underneath? As you say, the 'fire compartment' is a very large one so the compartmenting rule might not apply.
    The fear of gas bottles left inside is also thought by some to be an issue. Could that be overcome by a different way of storing them, so as to anticipate such fears?
    FYI, in the Dutch case, the fire is thought to have been caused by vandalism/someone with a grudge, and happened after hours when no one was present.
     
  14. John Webb

    John Webb Member

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    It's very much a case of taking an individual decision at the time - there's a wide range of factors which may or may not be present; in the absence of roof vents the time it will take the fire service to attend may need to be taken into account, the presence or absence of adjacent buildings that might become involved for example.
    The build-up of a fuel-rich layer in a closed building resulting from a reduction in the oxygen level would be mitigated by having the door open, and if the door is large and reaches near the top of the building the hot gases would also be vented through it; on the other hand this might encourage flame spread under the roof which ignites items below it by radiation and burning brand transmission.... It's not the easiest thing to sort out - far better to put up the building with roof vents from the start - they can simply be a translucent/transparent thermoplastic material forming skylights which fall out of their frames when warmed by the heat from a fire.

    The pictures in the excerpt you refer me to don't give me a clear view of what the fire service were doing at that incident. I wonder if in fact they were cooling the roof to prevent fire spread along the roof? The building doors look quite substantial so perhaps they could not be opened for access?

    Yes - best bet is to to keep gas bottles in secure enclosures on the outside of the building with the gas piped in to where it is needed. Preferably use an alternative to Acetylene if possible. If fire breaks out inside the building then the fire service can see at once that there are no gas bottles inside and can approach with greater confidence. With gas piped in from a single storage point it is also easier to isolate the gas supply from the building as part of the locking up procedure.
     
  15. SMIFF

    SMIFF New Member

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  16. cct man

    cct man Part of the furniture

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    Hi folks:

    I understand that the concrete is to be poured for the new floor in the re-built carriage shed starting tomorrow,(Friday the 7th).

    best regards
    Chris:
     
  17. Colin Charman

    Colin Charman New Member

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    I visited the Boiler and Carriage Shops on Wednesday. I'm sure there are still some things to sort out but they both appear to be back to normal. Picture on MHR web site.
     

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