Flying Scotsman

thanks Miff


I think anyone regardless of if they have physically helped or not can voice there opinion, anyone can research the history.

also regarding paint, should it be brush or spray painted?


Mike

 

Have a look at this document from Martyn Bane's website:
http://www.martynbane.co.uk/modernsteam/exhausted-locos/uk-lempor.pdf

More info/pix here:
http://www.martynbane.co.uk/modernsteam/modernsteamlocos.htm

Richard

 

heres an interesting shot

the preserved 4472 alongside 60051

http://gallery62603.fotopic.net/p67958493.html

blink bonny has its smokebox door straps silver, I thought that when flying scotsman had them like this in the early 90s it looked horrible and wished they painted them black

Mike

 

This really is getting onto rivet-counting territory now!! Does it matter? The hinge straps are not painted silver, they are burnished as per other brightwork on a loco. And if you look more closely at your photo you'll see the FS also has the straps burnished. it was commonpalce in the days that sheds still had decent cleaners.

 

what I mean is I think, when in brunswick green, smoke deflectors condition,they looked better with them painted black, thats all, just my personal opinion.

like this
http://gallery62603.fotopic.net/p67958436.html

call it rivet counting, attention to detail, whatever.

should certain things just be dismissed because its branded as rivet counting?

Mike

 

I'm afraid you're wrong, there. Shed staff never had the time or inclination to burnish smokebox straps, and as for being commonplace, it never happened. The usual "tarting-up" for a special was, if you were feeling extravagant, a tin of silver paint, or at best a bit of whitewash. Ask the MNA! Let's keep our history accurate, there's is enough cr@p on Wikipedia.

 

'The Gresley Pacifics' Parts 1 & 2 O.S. Nock ISBN 0715383205. Oh, look, lots of nice photographs of engines with bright, shiny smokebox door hinges, taken a bit before Photoshop too. Do yourself a favour, widen your view of steam beyond the 1940s, 50s and 60s. The fact that the A1s and A3s were frequently immaculate in the 20s and 30s is well documented, and you wouldn't believe what Old Oak Common could get up to with all that steel, brass and copper. The activities of the MNA were a sad footnote, in a way, emphasising not only how far standards had fallen but also that steam was very much on its way down to the canvas and out.

 

Looks bloomin awful to me, whether the hinges are polished or not. The deflectors just look like an add-on, unsympathetic to the rather lovely lines of an A3. Sure, they're functional, but don't do anything to improve the appearance, in contrast to something like a Duchess. My personal opinion, of course ;-)

 

I've got to disagree with you there (on a purely personal note). The German blinks fitted A3's were the best looking of the ex LNER pacifics. IMHO.

 

that may be true, even if there is less photographic evidence of the 20s,30s

however I think Sir Nige means when in BR green they where not kept polished as a rule, which is what I was originally saying.

I like the deflectors, but in BR livery without polished straps.
I think they look great in BR livery without german deflectors too.

I love it however, in apple green, with no deflectors, smokebox door numbers and with polished straps.

I suppose I am a bit of a rivet counter, Im a glass half full kind of person, glad engines are running etc, but even little things like the polised numbers on 71000 niggle me a little, not very much, but theres a little part of me that would like to see them with white paint on them.

my dads personal hate is yellow cabside stripes which I dont mind personally.


The front end of a loco is its "face" if you like, and little differences around that area change the look.

even ex LNER locos that had the smokebox number either above the top smokebox strap or on it give a different look,
GWR locos with or without the smokebox numbers.


with regards scotsman, could some good old fashioned british compromise be come to?

I think the majority of peoples main pet hate is that they dont like the german deflectors in apple green.

It looks lovely in apple green, cant really get away from the famous 4472 condition so could it run on preserved railways without the deflectors and when sat in the museum, and have them fitted for the mainline which we have to live with?


Mike

 

I'd be interested to hear your explanation of why you think the deflectors improve the appearance? You're not German are you? ;-)

 

Absolutely correct. Same can be found in "The Power of the A1s A2s and A3s" - loads of shots with burnished straps, esp pre-war, and not just ex-works either.

 

Mikes nicely posedsthe dilemna not even sure that i dont actually like the mish/mash of styles myself.

We are so fortunate she survived (although its probable that if she hadnt there would have been an A3slt instead ?) unfortunate that she has potentially so many hats to wear. If Pegler hadnt turned her back into an A1 lookalike we would no doubt all be a lot more accepting of the German deflectors and Brunswick green, But he did and the Apple green is now the brand, as is the polished Smokebox straps.

After running for some time in this guise so will be the Double chimney and smoke deflectors. So unless there is a unanimous, significant and well funded campaign to do away with the 1950's paraphernalia youll just have to accept it.

Eventually FS will have to spend some time as A museum piece, and maybe that time will be the time for a cosmetic alteration to A1 appearance. and i think that for a period dedicated to running on preserved lines surely the smoke deflectors at least could be removed...

At the other end of the spectrum a coat of Bruswick paint for the running in period makes a lot more sense for those keen to see it. Makes me wonder whether the guy who wanted to borrow FS for 10 years would have been allowed (had he made a better offer) to run her in His preferred guise whatever that would have been.

Still stirring emotions - what a Loco.

 

But you can't polish a turd. Put another way, if the colour is wrong then what does it matter about the 'quality' finish? Think 6100 in the 'pink'...

I think your comment smacks of a certain arrogance, and if you are as skilled with a paint brush as you claim, then I echo another's comment and urge you to pass your skills and experience to others with the willingness to learn and continue the trade for the future. Dismissing 'helpers' as a mere inconvenience is rather short-sighted.

 

Indeed. At present, I can't see it....at all....but I'm willing to be educated in their hidden beauty! So, I need someone to have a go at explaining to me why they think they improve its appearance.

To me, they look like someones popped across to B&Q (or Germany) and bought some off-the-shelf deflectors that in no way follow the lines, or form, of the loco. They look like they were an added-on after-thought, rather than being designed sympathetically with the lines of the loco. Perhaps that's what's liked, the contrast between the graceful curves of the loco and the sharp angular lines of the deflector? I do think it's hard to make an argument that they compliment the form of the loco, but perhaps the stark contrast is what appeals?

 

I don't like the German smoke deflectors either. I much prefer the deflectors on Peppercorn's A1s and A2s

 

Yorkshire, born and bred, so I obviously have good taste!

I personally never rated the ordinary A3's aesthetically, much preferring the A1'a and Peppercorn A2's. I also generally prefer the larger locos with smoke deflectors - A Duchess over a Princess, for instance. As for the German style, I just thought that they sat naturally on the A3's and improved their appearance. I also generally prefer squat double chimneys to the squat single ones (but not the tallish double one on 45596).

As Ralph said, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I'm not that bothered, though!

 

Surely the whole point of the NRM overhauling Scotsman is so that the public (who pay through the funding to keep the NRM going) can enjoy the sight and sound of an iconic locomotive in action? Most of the public won't know or care what colour it should be or whether it should have deflectors or not. I, for one, am grateful to the NRM for taking on the challenge and having the where with all to follow it through. Better a living breathing locomotive with deflectors than a stuffed and mounted apple green A1 look-a-like.

 

He didn't try to make it look like an A1. Pegler's initial aim was for it to appear to be a typical LNER A3.

I broadly agree except that such a campaign would not need to be unanimous (no campaign could be), just sufficient support and money to convince NRM it is a good idea.

I've never heard anyone seriously suggesting restoration to A1 condition but I think many would support a return to the 'typical LNER A3' appearance.

I agree. I don't mind greatly what livery it appears in but I think when fitted with smoke deflectors & double chimney it should only appear in BR green. With a single chimney it could appear in either BR or LNER liveries. The chimney configuration has already been swapped twice during the preservation era - so why not do it again sometime?