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Flying Scotsman

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by 73129, Aug 24, 2010.

  1. class8mikado

    class8mikado Member

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    Given the much publicised funding situation with the NRM, one wonders what there is still be left in the kitty to give to the contract winner. Although if the NRM is forced down the admission charges route then maybe 4472 is something that people might pay to 'cab' - with a free pass for those who have contributed to its restoration (though its a bit tough on those who donated anonymously)...
     
  2. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Resident of Nat Pres

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    I am no engineer, but from what engineers have said to me, whilst harder but less frequent work may ease mechanical wear (on all components), surely the likely additional heating and cooling cycles of steaming from cold, light work to reach the start point of the tour, extreme call on the boiler during the tour and then light work back to base before returning to cold and then starting the process again a week or two later is likely to cause more "stress" to the boiler remaining at least warm for up to the full period between washouts?

    Certainly, this view was put to me after one of the spates of mainline loco failures based around boiler issues, and on the NYMR there is an agreement with Home Based hired owners that, where possible, locos will not be steamed for less than 3 days due to the extra stresses of the steaming and cooling process.

    Similarly, much was said about heating and cooling cycles when 60163 suffered her boiler problems.

    Hence, the 4472 Report recommending NOT keeping in steam for 7 to 14 days period seems to go against everything I have over many years heard from loco operators.

    Steven
     
  3. 242A1

    242A1 Member

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    Valid point on the thermal cycling front. The trouble with these machines is that they will present you with a substantial bill one way or another regardless. You make boilers expand, you allow them to contract, you have all the convection circulation of the water, you have the impact of poor water quality. There remain different schools of thought with regard to boiler management.
    With 4472 you have to balance the need to have it available in the museum, to have it out on mainline excursions, to have it travel about the country for broader access.
    Mechanically it should be in very good condition when complete and procedures should be put in place to keep it that way. But these too will need to be managed around what will be a fairly peculiar life for the engine.
     
  4. Steamage

    Steamage Member

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    To me, that means periods of more-or-less daily working a few times a year, followed by a quick visit to the workshop to fix problems that may have arisen and catch up with routine maintenance, and then back on display in the museum for 2-3 months before the next tour.

    For example, a tour might involve
    - a York-Kidderminster mainline run (pick up in the North-east perhaps, DL return),
    - a week on the SVR including some photo-charters with their teak carriages,
    - a mainline trip from Kidderminster to Manchester, perhaps via Derby and the Hope Valley,
    - some time on the ELR,
    - perhaps a couple of runs to Carlisle and back while based in the North-west,
    - a final mainline run back to York via another interesting route.
    Apart from routine wash-outs, etc. she could be in steam the whole time and earning revenue for most it. Give her the same load as a Castle, West Country or Britannia and she won't be overloaded.

    Similar tours could be devised to take in the NVR, NNR and some ECML/GER mainline tours, or the MHR, Bluebell and London-based mainline tours, and so on. They could either co-incide with preserved line galas or, as with Tornado in her early days, become the focus of special Flying Scotsman events. In the summer, most of us would expect a stint on the Scarborough Spa Express and perhaps The Waverley.

    Over the course of 4-5 years, she could visit all the main-line connected lines that want her and all parts of the country, without putting undue strain on the loco or the finances. It does, though, depend on a willing support team with suitable experience (mostly volunteers), and good liaison with preserved lines, tour operators and TOCs.
     
    MarkinDurham and RalphW like this.
  5. BillyReopening

    BillyReopening Member

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    I'm sure if tours are planned, the engine could be kept in a "light steam" state between jobs for a 10-12 day period, and then rested - surely thats a sensible way of running it? Also, what better attraction for the NRM for you to actually see your favorite engine smelling of steam and coal and seeing whisps of smoke from the chimney etc? Ok you would have to park it outside but is it really THAT bad?!

    I've long been of the opinion that if the science museum in london and their associated museums charged £1.50 for entry they would be laughing - given the content, particularly in the science museum that offers very good value, compared to say, the Eden Project down my neck of the woods, where you pay a whopping £23 for an adult ticket, £18 for over 60s and £10 for children - Ok, Eden has to make money but in terms of education its a bit of a one-trick pony...
     
  6. BillyReopening

    BillyReopening Member

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    Sorry Steamage, I didn't fully read your post - basically, you said it better than I did!!

     
  7. Miff

    Miff Well-Known Member

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    The report doesn't make any such recommendation, nor does it propose a specific limit on the number of continuous days in steam. It does say that both steam raising and cooling should be carefully managed over the appropriate periods of time. It also says the annual mileage and the number and length of trips should be limited, with appropriate load limits for each route, to "create an appropriate balance between service running for public pleasure and reasonable wear and tear on locomotive moving parts and/or boiler equipment".
     
  8. class8mikado

    class8mikado Member

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    Any news on the ' Winning' finishing contractor ?
     
  9. Thompson1706

    Thompson1706 Member

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    I wonder how much the imparting of that very basic knowledge in the report has cost the N.R.M. ?

    Bob.
     
  10. class8mikado

    class8mikado Member

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    As it was a small part of a larger and well considered document id like to say it was money well spent, but it would have been much better spent 3 Years ago.
    It would have been negligent if the writers of the report had failed to outline the purpose that the Machinery concerned post the remedial work detailed would be fit for would it not ?
    Bit like telling a bloke he needs a triple bypass without advising that triathlons arent a good idea post op.... absoloutely obvious, but absoloutely neccessary to state...
     
  11. Peter Hall

    Peter Hall Guest

    It does appear to be taking a while for the NRM to make an announcement. For now though one has to presume that no news is good news and that detailed negotiations are still going on with the preferred bidder so all envisaged eventualities are covered. If though, the required work and testing will take 60-74 weeks as implied in the FCP report, it would be now unrealistic to expect completion until early 2015 at the earliest. Hopefully the NRM will give an update soon.
     
  12. huochemi

    huochemi Well-Known Member Friend

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    Not sure I understand the "no news is good news" comment. Good news for the NRM is arguably not to do anything at all and focus on something else. One can imagine how popular the agenda item of FS is at management meetings. It is not unknown of course for government departments to delay decisions to defer the impact on current year cash flow. Assuming the NRM is serious in its apparent commitment to restore FS (and despite some of the hyperbole, it seems unlikely that their commitment is to restore it at any cost), one wonders if whoever calls the shots at the NRM expects that someone will guarantee a sort of turnkey job at a fixed price. This seems unlikely in terms of any of the obvious suspects being brave enough to commit what it will cost upfront, and even if they did, it is probably false comfort as the contracting entities are probably all men of straw even if their backers aren't.
     
  13. 242A1

    242A1 Member

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    I suspect that the management at the NRM will want to make a decision that will well and truly set down a marker to show that the days of poor management and lax decision making with regard to this project are well over. Ended.
    As to the "usual suspects" there are not many. When you look more closely for those with a track record of good repair management and prompt delivery there will not be many names in the hat to draw from. Given the problems this overhaul has faced some might be surprised that there are any willing to tender for this job. Cynics!
    I still cannot work out quite what has gone wrong with respect to this project. Talking quietly to people involved in running other 3 cylinder engines makes the fog more opaque rather than less.
     
  14. GHWood

    GHWood New Member

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    I noticed this weekend when visiying the NRM for the great gathering that the cab has been removed from 4472 and lots of the pipe work has been taken off. Does this mean a contractor has been appointed to complete the overhaul and a boiler lift is imminent? There also seemed to be a big hole on the front running plate where (I think!) the middle cylinder should be?

    FS.jpg

    I've turned the picture round.
    Ralph
     

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  15. 242A1

    242A1 Member

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    Could be some preparation going on but you will not see the middle cylinder from there but you should glimpse the conjugated gear. The inside cylinder is fitted further back in the frames, it is not in line with the outside pair. Things could be moving now - at long last some might add. You would have thought that some announcement would have been made before work re-started..................
     
  16. osprey

    osprey Member

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    The conjugated gear had been removed way back in June/July as I saw it lying on the floor.
     
  17. Peter Hall

    Peter Hall Guest

    Just checked the NRM website http://www.flyingscotsman.org.uk/ and it appears that no updates have been added since the FSS report was made public on 8th March. The enthusiast press has quoted the new NRM boss as saying an announcement will be made this Autumn -presumably this means by 21st December.

    Interesting to note that the Meanley report was published on 26th October 2012. One year on what progress has actually been made?
     
  18. London Bridge

    London Bridge New Member

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  19. 242A1

    242A1 Member

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    Thanks Osprey, I was not aware the gear had been removed though glimpse you would if it had still been in place.

    As to progress, the job is on hold until the completion contract has been agreed. The engine could have been kept clean though. Not a great example, makes me wonder about the new regime and any lessons that might have been learned. You can either correct a mistake or pretend that it did not happen but you do not need reminders if you take the second course of action.
     
  20. williamfj2

    williamfj2 New Member

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    Just seen a set of wheeled pacific frames head out of York, I doubt it'll be anything other than Flying Scotsman off to a contractors.
     

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