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Flying Scotsman

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by 73129, Aug 24, 2010.

  1. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    The full story can be read in this very thread, two very lengthy and public independent reports, and in most of the railway mags on a monthly basis. We'll never know the full and exact ins and outs...but it's a fool who does not learn from past history to improve the future. I welcome the NRM's choice of contractor and look forward to 4472 steaming at last. It's been a long time coming, and no doubt the best is yet to come.

    Still hoping for an all apple green line up of Scotsman, Tornado and Blue Peter...and perhaps even no.2007...
     
  2. Tobbes

    Tobbes New Member

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    You could add 4488 Union of South Africa in LNER Green - which would be fascinating to see.

    Tobbes
     
  3. MarkinDurham

    MarkinDurham Member

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    Don't forget Mayflower, Morayshire & The Great Marquess
     
  4. Guitar

    Guitar New Member

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    I certainly don't wish to stir the pot, but this would seem the best place to ask.

    How on earth did the NRM mess up the restoration as much as it did? Its the national railway museum, if anyone has experience with locomotives you would think it would be them. Its not like they were a few blokes in a shed working on the back of a beer mat, its a nationally funded museum.

    I've only ever worked on miniature locomotives, but checking frames for cracks/distortion, cylinder bore size, and cylinder alignment, seem such obvious things to check as part of the restoration process. Maybe I am lucky to have had good tuition in the subject, but I cannot see why the locomotive has suffered so many obvious problems.
     
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  5. The Saggin' Dragon

    The Saggin' Dragon Part of the furniture Staff Member Moderator

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    Conveniently ignoring Sir William McAlpine, who didn't.
     
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  6. daveannjon

    daveannjon Member

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    Given the NRM's financial restraints is there now a hope in hell that Duchess of Hamilton will steam again, given that turning it into 'The Bathtub' cost hundreds of thousands of £££ ?

    Dave
     
  7. martin butler

    martin butler Member

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    There is a world of difference from restoring an otherwise in good condition engine to workable condition,than in rebuilding 4472, which was by the time it was withdrawn for overhall completly worn out i think that York didnt have the skills, or the project management in place at the time to tackle it in house
     
  8. Big Al

    Big Al Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    That has to be one of the controlling factors that has led to this protracted issue with FS. I have always assumed that an original design takes into account the potential interaction of one component with another and the longer term impact of wear and tear. Once you start tweaking an original, there are many potential unintended consequences, I would have thought. (Can we not all think of the youthful enthusiasm of car modifications that worked well until they didn't!)

    There are many examples of modifications to steam locomotives that led to improvements. The Lemaitre blastpipes that Bulleid introduced on the Lord Nelsons did a lot to solve their poor steaming characteristics (although management of the firebox remained a challenge for some firemen). The Giesel ejector on 34064 also helped with smoke deflection. But I think we have come to understand that what happened to FS was of a different order and, it would seem, there were also maintenance issues.

    Is it not possible that this sad story will actually help to ensure that designers and engineers of the present generation will benefit from the "lessons learned" over FS and that could well be the best insurance policy and 'nota bene moment' for every other preserved locomotive group and current restoration project across the country?
     
  9. Peter Hall

    Peter Hall Guest

    I thought the NRM had made the situation quite clear in that they have no current plans to return Duchess of Hamilton or any other locomotive to steam without external funding. As the NRM keep saying, they will consider any realistic funded proposal to return to steam any locomotive in the collection. This presumably including Duchess of Hamilton.

    Although not as up to date as some with steam matters I understand National Collection 30587 and 44027 are currently being returned to steam thanks to external funding along with possibly Austerity 0-6-oST HE3183/1944 although the current status of the latter is far from clear.
     
  10. RalphW

    RalphW Part of the furniture Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    Do you have information regarding the "NRMs financial restraints" or is it just an assumption.
     
  11. Sheff

    Sheff Well-Known Member

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    Does the answer not lie within the their title? National Railway MUSEUM ???
     
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  12. MarkinDurham

    MarkinDurham Member

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    No, he didn't, but he did eventually partner up with Pete Waterman, who has also commented in the past on how expensive it all became. I think that messrs McAlpine & Waterman were fortunate that the late Tony Marchington came along when he did.

    Wasn't it Ian Riley who remarked that the way to get to a small fortune from owning/operating main line steam was to start with a large fortune?
     
  13. anorakeric

    anorakeric New Member

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    Essential reading for anyone who wants background 'from the horses mouth' is the October 2012 report from the NRM (google flying scotsman restoration update) and their statement quoted in Heritage Railway this week (visible via their thread on NR).
    NRM clearly state and accept what's gone wrong and now with a contract with Ian Riley for restoration and 2 years of operation being monitored by professional contract management they seem to be going down the right (albeit expensive) path - there appears to be a proviso to stop further restoration if the frames prove to be a serious problem after removal of cylinders.[/quote]
     
  14. daveannjon

    daveannjon Member

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    If you recall there was talk of closure of some of the museums in the group a while back, maybe that was misinformation or scaremongering in order to ensure the Department wouldn't cut budgets too much, but as far as I know there will be budget cuts.

    Dave
     
  15. RalphW

    RalphW Part of the furniture Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    Yes agreed but you were just assuming that NRM had/has restraints.
     
  16. Paul42

    Paul42 Member

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    From the thread "What should the NRM restore next ".

     
  17. 26D_M

    26D_M Well-Known Member

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    Yes I think Ian has remarked along those lines but it is quite widely accepted. Very prescient in the context of having to acquire new premises for a loco works in order to continue the heritage railway related business. Philanthropy of one form or another is nearly always required to underwrite the continued operation of steam locos whether through public funds, charitable support or wealthy benefactors.
     
  18. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Part of the furniture

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    But remember that its designer was a Crewe Premium apprentice after which he served the L&Y R including spells as a shedmaster at Blackpool depot; that would make it a case of the loco returning to its spiritual home [i.e. on the right side of the Pennines] :):)
     
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  19. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Last time I looked, Crewe was to the left of the Pennines. :)

    I'll get me coat.
     
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  20. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Surely the "right side" of the Pennines is neither "left" nor "right" but "a long way below" - preferably well south of the Thames... :)

    Tom
     
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