If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Flying Scotsman

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by 73129, Aug 24, 2010.

  1. Dan Hill

    Dan Hill Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2008
    Messages:
    2,576
    Likes Received:
    545
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Brick Machine Operator
    Location:
    Haywards Heath
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    It is true. I was reading one of my books on the loco and one of the things was that when people saw Flying Scotsman in Brunswick during the 90s they refused to believe it was the real one. How true this is I don't know.

    Just realised that 2013 will be a big year for the loco. 90th Anniversary of her being built and the 50th Anniversary of her preservation by Alan Peglar.
     
  2. Bulleid Pacific

    Bulleid Pacific Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,991
    Likes Received:
    1,039
    Occupation:
    A Thingy...
    Its all about how well you market something, at the end of the day. Whilst I consider myself to be a staunch supporter of the BR Brunswick Brigade, there is the possibility that 60103's immediate return to this livery might just risk damaging the public perception. However, if marketed right by the NRM and interested parties, it should be possible to bring the public round to accepting it in whatever livery one chooses a bit further down the line...
     
  3. Steve from GWR

    Steve from GWR Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2010
    Messages:
    1,292
    Likes Received:
    14
    Really, the public know her by name and colour. Those are the two key things that the NRM has to get right for the relaunch. We're not talking about nerds, we're talking about people who, if you asked, does that loco have a single or a double chimney, would probably say "ummm, it's only got one". The relaunch of FS is not mainly for the benefit of this forum, or for the many rail photographers, it's for the benefit of steam heritage in the UK, to raise its profile, to get the NRM and the loco in the news, to keep the public keen, to have it all on the six o'clock news, above all, to generate coverage and interest. Does it matter if it has single or double chimney? Would it generate a single extra inch of coverage by having Lempor draughting? Would BR Green help its cause? No, no and no. So, "Flying Scotsman" in Apple Green it is.
     
  4. Sir Nigel Gresley

    Sir Nigel Gresley Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2006
    Messages:
    880
    Likes Received:
    148
    Occupation:
    Retired Soldier of Fortune
    Location:
    Dorset
    [stirring mode]
    The last time I saw 4472/502/103/60103 in the company of Joe Public they were disappointed that it didn't have a "pointed nose" (ie It wasn't an A4)!

    Funny no-one has mentioned NE 502 or 103 in black!

    On an historical note, she entered traffic for the first time as an A3 in January 1947, carrying the number 103 and LNER green livery. Therefore, as she is about to receive an A3 boiler, if in LNER green she can only carry the number 103; and I'm not even entering the chimney debate! (Incidentally, what about Green Arrow's single chimney casting, which isn't getting much use at the moment?) What a shame she wasn't one of the seven A3s to get the purple livery - that would have made the debate interesting.
    [/stirring mode]
     
  5. Steve from GWR

    Steve from GWR Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2010
    Messages:
    1,292
    Likes Received:
    14
    Purple? Got any pics??????????
     
  6. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2008
    Messages:
    2,857
    Likes Received:
    2,793
    It matters because the NRM is not just a loco operator & railtour promoter. It is a museum. As a national museum it should set the highest curatorial standards for others to aspire to. Therefore apple green = single chimney, and no heritage or curatorial imperative to retain the double chimney (or not to fit a Lempor) since the Kylchap was only fitted a few years ago.

    Flying Scotsman may be one of the best known of all steam locomotives but, despite the great success of the recent funding appeals, the immediate value of this 'brand' is perhaps being over-estimated. As every previous owner discovered the loco generates much good will but it is not a cash-cow. If the future of the NRM and the steam heritage movement really depends on this 'brand image' then we are all doomed, ladies & gentlemen, DOOMED I say!
     
  7. southyorkshireman

    southyorkshireman Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2005
    Messages:
    6,558
    Likes Received:
    34
    Location:
    Rotherham 41D or Metropolitan Railway boardroom
    Reading through, most of these arguments have merit, and yet they do seem to be a very thinly veiled argument for 'I want BR green' I don't actually believe that most of the people making the arguments truly support the arguments they are making beyond a means to getting their way. It's interesting to note the apparent ages of the people making the comments.

    If we compare what is happening to so many other areas of heritage / restorations I don't see that the NRM are doing anything more or less than any other significant museums.

    In the Thames, there sits HMS Belfast, a ship painted in WW2 livery and yet internally very much kitted out 50 /50 WW2 and the condition it was in when decommissioned from service, and also fitted with external features not appropriate to its livery? Why no outcry there?

    In a hanger in Coningsby sits PA747, to all intents and purposes a Lancaster bomber yet it has a Lincoln's tail. It also carries a livery it never did (has carried several) Can name plenty of other WW2 survivors that share a similar inaccurate liveries. Again, where is the outcry?

    I would argue that the imperial war museum and BBMF are institutions of equal standing and of similar aims and goals to the NRM

    I don't see that Scotsman being turned out the way it is actually damages what it represents. To appreciate a machine in action surely doesn't require the paint. Reliability is the key. Yes it is the only surviving A3, which in many ways is a shame, but as it is it makes the best compromise to.

    If we want to see a similar loco design with single chimney, then the V2 surely acts as a near enough example, and I don't see that we would gain any more info about such set ups by having the A3 in the same condition at this time. Maybe in the future yes, but right now, no. Also although streamlined, surely Mallard is enough similar loco to show a Gresley pacific kitted out as Doncaster designed it? Yes not exactly the same, but a compromise.

    Should the NRM have had a Mirlees powerplant put back into D5500 when that was preserved? Funny how no one finds that a huge requirement.

    Meanwhile back in my own world, I'm just about to authorise our workshops to go ahead and rebuild a Heckel bassoon of similar 1930s vintage from it's fairly unique semi French system into German system. (We’re not talking some tin pot 10 a penny instrument, these are £20k instruments at this age) simply because in the current set up it is little use as more than a curiosity. No doubt to many I'll be committing a similar heinous crime, but essentially we're keeping the core of the instrument and the sound and just changing the key work, it'll just look different.

    Another thought, I think that Scotsman may uniquely have the chance to tap into two income streams over it's current ticket. At the moment, that's the general public. It needs Apple green for that source.



    In a few years time, I'm sure that when the novelty has worn off, the Brunswick brigade will get their wish and it will tap into another stream and generate new interest, possibly even from people who aren't bothered now. It's how fickle we as enthusiasts are. The people who are swearing to avoid at all costs now, I can almost guarantee will be running in their droves as soon as the colour changes. Curatorial standards are open to interpretation. The changes over the years at places such as the NRM reflect this. I'm sure we all would like a say, but rule by commitee on such a large scale get's us nowhere fast. I'm sure the NRM do pay attention to comments such as on here. Whether they decide to go along with it is an entirely different matter ;) we like to think we know best, but ultimately when you're actually responsible it's a lot harder and your neck is on the line. I think many on here conveniently forget how much harder it is to be the 'doer' rather than the 'supervisor'

    There are plenty of holes in my points, as I've no doubt some of you will enjoy pointing out. It's deliberate, it's late and I'm not so much trying to be another 'I'm right' as to try and get people looking from different perspective. If I've ruffled a few feathers, then I've achieved my goal.
     
  8. Tobbes

    Tobbes Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Messages:
    869
    Likes Received:
    2,354
    SouthYorkshireman,

    Thank-you for a considered post; I think you hit the nail on the head - the question is much less about FS per se, rather, it is about the role of the NRM, and whether we hold the NRM to a higher curatorial standard than the rest of the movement.

    We probably do; certainly the NRM do. But what are the stories that FS can tell? A non-exhaustive list.

    - As 1472 (A1): Emergence of Gresley super-power; GNR vs NER; standardisation at the Grouping, including reduction in size to the common LNER loading gauge;
    - As 4472 (A1/A10): Wembley's British Empire Exhibition in 1924 and 1925; exchange trials with GWR; first certified 100 mph; non-stop to Edinburgh & corridor tender; loss of corridor tender to A4s; wartime austerity;
    - As 103 (A3): More wartime austerity; unlike Great Northern, not rebuilt as an A1/1 - but it could've been, talking about Thompson's standardisation drive;
    - As 60103 (A3): Propagation of Pacifics to secondary mainline service (Leicester - Marylebone / GC); Double chimney / Klychap reengineering for more power in the 50s; adoption of German wing deflectors

    All of which gets us to preservation and 1963. But as 4472, two corridor tenders, Apple Green, single chimney - an historically inaccurate combination - it built more history as the story of preservation itself. And 4472's appearance in Rev Awdry's books, which is probably more important than anything else.....

    Personally, if the NRM wants to run mainline with Klychap, I'd refer as a purist to see it in Brunswick Green as 60103; but it has the story of preservation to tell in its current form.
     
  9. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Messages:
    35,121
    Likes Received:
    20,773
    Occupation:
    Training moles
    Location:
    The back of beyond
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Godd post southyorkshireman. You're references to the world of aviation preservation are quite interesting. To fly warbirds in this day and age does require quite a few compromises and without them many old aircraft would stay rooted to the ground. The same with liveries. If all preserved aircraft only carried markings authentic to that particular airframe then may famous units and/or aircrew wouldn't get a look in. Regarding 4472, the purist in me says that for a double chimney plus smoke deflectors it must be BR green but the realist in me recognises that whatever livery sells the loco to the general public is the one to go for for the time being.
     
  10. Guest

    Guest Part of the furniture Account Suspended

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    3,614
    Likes Received:
    21
    Occupation:
    Occasional
    Location:
    G C & N S
    And that's the rub.

    Mainline running requires modifications to any loco that destroy authenticity.

    The public recognise apple green and 4472 - the finest livery that ever ran the rails ( that should ensure another twenty pages!!) With the double chimney NR will insist on the deflectors for signal sighting and safety - so authenticity requires BR livery in that condition.

    But with airbrakes, AWS, OTMR, etc, she isn't authentic - so what is???

    4472 was 1925 to 1946 and 1963 to the present day - 68 years or so - Apple Green it is then!
     
  11. Sheff

    Sheff Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2006
    Messages:
    7,569
    Likes Received:
    2,346
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired Engineer & Heritage Volunteer
    Location:
    N Warks
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I've an old pocket book by Nock somewhere, but IIRC the colour reproduction is all over the place.
     
  12. Matt35027

    Matt35027 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2009
    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes Received:
    143
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Builder
    Location:
    Near 74D
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
  13. Sheff

    Sheff Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2006
    Messages:
    7,569
    Likes Received:
    2,346
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired Engineer & Heritage Volunteer
    Location:
    N Warks
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    What a great site. Well found.
     
  14. Guest

    Guest Part of the furniture Account Suspended

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    3,614
    Likes Received:
    21
    Occupation:
    Occasional
    Location:
    G C & N S
    Oh yes please - looks absolutely superb, and authentic too!
     
  15. dogsboddy

    dogsboddy New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2009
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Mobile operator computer stuff
    Location:
    London
    Hi Vilma,

    Totally agree-

    Boiler, bored-cylinders, double-chimney, Kylchap draughting, smoke-deflectors, steam-operated drain-cocks, modifications to lubrication system, fittings for a second tender, as well as the common mainline fittings, etc, are not only an important part of the history of 4472, they are part of her evolution.

    Most (if not all) of the changes will have been done for a reason; Unless we’re happy for a short trip to permanent home in the museum (or touring preserved lines) - I hope the developments are being weighed-up on technical, performance and operational merits before being hit with the [unachievable] authenticity stick.

    As paths and route availability become harder to get; won't degredation in operation, power and consumption affect ability (and willingness) to run longer/frequent trains, or the more interesting/exotic routes? In the end, if she doesn't earn pennies, will she be able to keep running - regardless of colour?

    It would be interesting to hear what crews and operators think…
     
  16. Vincent

    Vincent New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2010
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Spijkenisse (NL)
    Here in Holland we have our own thoughts about Flying Scotsman and the way she looks. Some don't bother (just give me a German engine to play, and I'll be happy!) and others are really interested. So, the Flying Scotsman discussion is held both in the UK and overseas!

    In my point of view, Scotsman does not have to be fit with a single chimney to match her 'correct' livery. But, Flying Scotsman wíth double chimney and wíth smoke deflectors is NOT the much loved Flying Scotsman with single chimney and fine looking front end of the engine. Flying Scotsman has lost a part of it's elegance, because the combination (a fine modeled Gresley Pacific fitted with strange blades on the smokebox) does not look authentic. And I bet that it will be noticed by family day-trippers.

    I think it must be a huge shock when Scotsman appeared with this features for the first time. When I saw Scotsman in the NRM workshop for the first time in 2004 (as a 13 year old kid), I was a bit sad when I discovered that Scotsman did not look like the nice Scotsman I know from pictures, films and Microsoft Train Simulator. And I hope that 4472 will once again reappear in her classical form. For a starter, does anyone know where her single chimney is? ;-) But for me, the way the engine looks has more to do with my feeling then if it's accurate with the way she was with LNER or BR.

    Nevertheless, as a young man with not too much to spend, I donated 50 pounds to the SOS appeal (donated 2 nuts or bolts, the firebox was to expensive :-D), because FS really belongs to the operational heritage mainline fleet. And this year, I will spent my holiday once again in the UK to haunt 4472 when she is back in steam again. Finally!

    Regards,
    Vincent
    (Netherlands)
     
  17. guycarr360

    guycarr360 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,414
    Likes Received:
    2,729
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chester le Street County Durham
    Hi Vincent,

    its already been mentioned the single chimney is beyond repair, and a new one would have to be cast..
     
  18. eddief

    eddief Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2006
    Messages:
    304
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Co. Durham
    I seem to recall that it literally fell apart when lifted out when she went BR green in 92/93. Maybe York has a spare somewhere.
     
  19. guycarr360

    guycarr360 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,414
    Likes Received:
    2,729
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chester le Street County Durham
    Anthony has mentioned that they dont and a pattern would have to be made to cast one, however depending on what blastpipe they chose to use, would affect the design process.
     
  20. Enterprise

    Enterprise Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2005
    Messages:
    5,276
    Likes Received:
    3,077
    As a youngster who spent much time loitering on Wood Green station after school, I well remember the A3s with and without German style deflectors. I and most of my friends at the time agreed that we preferred the look of the double chimney and deflectors. I really don't mind about authenticity. I much prefer that locomotives are able to run at speed on the mainline. However, I don't think LNER green suits an A3 with deflectors; the darker BR green looks better. I cannot see any point in refitting a single chimney for the reasons that have been given many times previously. The first time she runs out of KX, I shall be torn between standing on Alexandra Palace platform and watching her run through or booking on the train.
     

Share This Page