Flying Scotsman

I am sad that my innocent enquiry about the number 502 has led to a further series of unfriendly posts. I would "dislike" some of them if such a button existed.

Some confusion seems to have started with

That can't be referring to the first stage of Thompson's renumbering, as The Saggin' Dragon explained that FS carried 502 for only a few months. And Thompson's final renumbering lasted until the end apart from the addition of X0000 by BR, as with nearly all LNER, SR and LMS locos.

Even after all the unnecessary aggro, my enquiry has only been half answered. The Saggin' Dragon and S.A.C. Martin explained the number, and there were a few other amusing suggestions, but nobody has yet offered any theory as to why that number has been painted on the cabside now.

 

Didn't FS have a repaint as 502 in wartime black when it was first bought by the NRM? Is that the reason it still carries that number? (I'm losing track...)

Tom

 

No. Further to Saggin's reply, her first public appearance as 502 in black IIRC was at the NRM Railfest in 2012.
Edit : Further trawling of the grey matter suggests she was 502 on one side and 103 on the other.

 

I have exactly the same recollection but you beat me to it!

Oh and can everyone just calm down a little with the constant Gresley v. Thompson sniping and unnecessary unpleasantness, doesn't do anyone any credit!

 

Way of the world, friend, particularly on Nat Pres. Some people on here have a agends, and a firm belief that no-one else is entitled to a viewpoint contrary to their own. What's more, the discussion migrated to a situation that happened about seventy years ago, and whatever the rights or wrongs then, it happened and will stay happened. Whoever wins the Gresley v Thompson debate is immaterial.

There was nothing wrong with your query; it's just a shame it was hijacked for other purposes.

 

Can I just say - because I have been misrepresented a number of times last night - that I was not, in any way, shape or form, "hijacking" or starting a Thompson VS Gresley debate. The evidence in this thread shows this was not the case.

I responded to the query using the information I know to be true from my research. That in turn was rounded on for supposedly continuing a Gresley VS Thompson debate. Which - if you'll read the posts back - was not started by me at all in this thread.

What would you have me do? I said nothing other than to provide a factual account of what happened with the numbering system. Am I not allowed to defend myself from personal attacks?

 

The comment was not made at you, Mr martin, you answered a question with a legitimate and reasonable answer; people need read back only a short way to see where this particular wrangle started. Rather, it was a general comment, as are those below, using here as an example of the unfortunate attitude displyed by some - many? - participants of this forum. I belong to several forums, not all railway as I also have a major interest in classic cars. On many of these there is a free exchange of ideas and debate, but only at Nat Pres do I read the constant warfare that exists. I find it sad that people here cannot put together a coherent argument without resort to insults and abuse. There is no need.

Share your point of view by all means, but allow others theirs, and respect them, even if you don't agree.

 

Some of the trouble here isn't even to do with conflicting but genuine points of view, but with A attributing to B a point of view that B has never stated.

 

May I provide my apologies for my earlier frustrated reply.

 

Steve Davies wanted it to provide something different at the time - wartime black had never been worn by Flying Scotsman in preservation so it was an opportunity to do something different. Having her numbered as 502 also allowed some creative license for applying the livery and use of the York allocation - I seem to recall she was allocated there briefly during the war so there was some authenticity to the affair.

There seems to be some debate elsewhere as to whether the livery was entirely accurate - for example, the Thompson A2 Pacific variants that wore wartime black (P2 rebuilds and A2/1s) seemed to vary in having lining out on the bufferbeam between class members. I haven't seen many wartime black photographs of Gresley A10s and A3s but the ones I have the bufferbeam isn't lined out. In short there's no hard and fast rule for lining out the bufferbeam.

Then there's the numeral styles used - again nothing technically incorrect if Scotsman is representative of the class but as herself I remain unsure. Obviously the NE is representative of the wartime austerity measures, but there is the possibility that Scotsman might not have had shaded letters/numerals the entire time as plain Gill Sans yellow and cream lettering/numerals were also applied at various times to the fleet. It's a real minefield for modellers and the best way of doing it is finding photographs showing these details. The only wartime black photograph I know of Flying Scotsman shows no bufferbeam lining out but shaded letters and numerals.

Either way it was different and it had a nice finish. It is a shame it won't now be seen as a livery in steam, but perhaps it's best left as a reminder of the past.

 

Nothing to apologise for, Mate, and I should perhaps have been more specific in my grievence. Trying not to upset individual, and thereby joining the throng!

 

Don't get too worried about the "accuracy" of the number style etc. The fact that FS was carrying double chimney and deflectors at the time renders all such debate superfluous.

 

Very true. Though she was unveiled minus the deflectors. Personally speaking I rather liked the plain black livery and can see the benefits of having a plain livery when testing the engine.

It's a moot point now as the modifications have been made that will allow 60103 at the locomotive end to be the most accurate to her early 60s form than she has been since Pegler bought her, so BR Green it will remain for the time being.

 

NatPres: not so much a Forum as an Againstum ...

Tom

 

Not been a mod for long?

Tom

 

That, as I recall, was the main reason why the wartime black was applied in 2011. That's also the reason why the NRM opted for matt black - people pointed out at the time that the Big Four in WWII would actually have used gloss black. It wasn't really intended to be a "livery", more of a glorified undercoat - although I have to say, personally I thought it looked pretty handsome.

(For those who have forgotten what it looked like: https://www.flickr.com/photos/willi...Dc8-ajqn8H-9SFDN6-ifLp52-aNPjy4-azXqN7-arKSgT)

 

I can certainly agree with that! There's something about a big express engine in plain black; I thought that Stanier's non-streamlined pacifics looked magnificent in their wartime garb. When clean, anyway, which wasn't often!