If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Flying Scotsman

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by 73129, Aug 24, 2010.

  1. saltydog

    saltydog Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    2,566
    Likes Received:
    70
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Birmingham
    Don't forget we are talking about an engine that is a world wide celebrity and as I intimated in my earlier post she will attract passengers like a dog attracts fleas!!!!!
     
  2. Guest

    Guest Part of the furniture Account Suspended

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    3,646
    Likes Received:
    21
    Occupation:
    Occasional
    Location:
    G C & N S
    Why on earth do you think some chancer would see if he could put a swift one past a few "public sector cash strapped numpties" in these times of national austerity?

    If this rumour is fact then he needs exposing so we can hold him up to ridicule and worse. I saw enough theft from the public purse by tory spivvery in my eighteen years with BRPB under their governance tolast me a lifetime. it sounds like it has not gone away.

    Now a ten year lease at £500k plus a clearing bank guarantee for overhaul costs at the end of the term - do you think he would buy that???
     
  3. spindizzy

    spindizzy Active Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    898
    Likes Received:
    43
    Without doubt she is the the most famous locomotive in the world and attract a huge customer base but making a profit of the best part of £1m will be tough going. I guess she would have to be worked hard and so maintenance costs would also be high so needing to earn even more money? The Tornado model is probably the nearest thing we have to compare to, they seem to be getting on very well but they have a "new" locomotive. You have to love the comics for putting out stories like this, bound to cause a stir.
     
  4. saltydog

    saltydog Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    2,566
    Likes Received:
    70
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Birmingham
    This 'story' doesn't have the appearance of something plucked out of thin air. There is a quote from Pete Waterman who is fronting the bid......" I can vouch that this man is worth the money he says he is." Although he refuses to reveal the mans identity saying it is "irrelevant".
    It all begs the question, if as some say on here he will be lucky to make his £450,000 plus the cost of a 10 year ticket back. Why is he doing it?
    Obviously not for the publicity.
     
  5. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Resident of Nat Pres Account Suspended

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2007
    Messages:
    9,265
    Likes Received:
    761
    Occupation:
    Project Management, Software consulting
    Location:
    London
    My only concern would be their willingness to lend 4472 to preserved railways.

    If it's true then I think this is a cheeky bid, but I can think of another 4-6-2 which would be fitting of that offer and one that many people would love to see running again... and if this was accepted then the other locomotive may miss out as a consequence.

    If there's truth in it, then my guess is them behind it are frequentors of this forum.
     
  6. Dan Hill

    Dan Hill Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2008
    Messages:
    2,033
    Likes Received:
    114
    Occupation:
    Brick Machine Operator
    Location:
    Haywards Heath
    Still haven't got my issue yet :(. Seems an interesting idea but it seems the best person to confirm the truthness of anything like this would be Anthony.
     
  7. Miff

    Miff Well-Known Member Friend

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2008
    Messages:
    1,595
    Likes Received:
    840
    Sounds like a big risk for the NRM unless a very large sum is paid up front. What if this person's company went bust before the 10 years was up with the overhaul unfunded and the 450k only part paid? Hmmm. I wonder if 'Flying Scotsman plc' is still available as a company name.
     
  8. 242A1

    242A1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2006
    Messages:
    957
    Likes Received:
    347
    Pete Waterman, thanks for that snippet Saltydog, you would think that the "once bitten" rule might apply. His previous dealings with the engine were not exactly successful and the word that crosses my mind is motive.
    Whoever is lurking in the background behind all this, it is most unlikely to be a 'John Cameron' kind of character - sadly. People with money are very good at avoiding paying out, it is too frequently how they accrued their pile in the first place. So I am in agreement with the general view that the outcome of this could lead the NRM back to, well, where it wouldn't want to be.
     
  9. Mighty Mogul

    Mighty Mogul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2007
    Messages:
    1,449
    Likes Received:
    2
    Occupation:
    Artist
    Location:
    7037
    As rumours and stories go this one is pretty fascinating! I wouldn't like to see the proposed arrangement with a third party happen - largely because the purchase and overhaul of FS has been undertaken at great expense and effort from both the NRM and the supporting public. The NRM should be the ones to reap any financial rewards from operating the loco. Accepting a flat fee instantly leaves them out of pocket, and allows a third party to profiteer on work funded by the NRM/public. That in my mind isn't acceptable.

    But, another thought occurs to me: who has ever actually managed to operate FS at a profit? I would suggest this third party is taking quite a gamble by bidding to run the loco with a view to financial gain. It 'could' all go horribly wrong, and in that instance would it not be better for this third party to have their fingers burned than the NRM? History doesn't bode well for FS in terms of financial viability. It may attract willing passengers like 'fleas to a dogs back' but that hasn't been enough in the past to make the loco pay for itself.
     
  10. Steve from GWR

    Steve from GWR Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2010
    Messages:
    1,292
    Likes Received:
    11
    This came from Ian Riley on The Works forum today:

    "You may have seen an article in the railway press recently, about a certain Industry Celebrity and his plans for 4472.
    The National Railway Museum have dismissed the suggestion out of hand, saying it is totally and utterly rejected, and too preposterous for words..."

    So there!
     
  11. Guest

    Guest Part of the furniture Account Suspended

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    3,646
    Likes Received:
    21
    Occupation:
    Occasional
    Location:
    G C & N S
    ............Good
     
  12. dp266

    dp266 Member Account Suspended

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2008
    Messages:
    374
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Project Management
    Location:
    County Palatine of Lancaster
    Taking a dispassionate view, would anyone really object if a true philanthropist came along to underwrite any of our cherished locos for mainline running as well as heritage lines? If someone wanted to provide a means of guaranteeing the long term operation of a loco at no cost to the owner and to hand that loco back in good condition, would it be a bad thing?
     
  13. ghost

    ghost Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2006
    Messages:
    1,818
    Likes Received:
    636
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    N.Ireland
    It wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, but how do you quantify 'good order'? We've seen before with Scotsman and also Royal Scot, that one man's 'full works overhaul' is another man's botched job.
    As mentioned before, what happens if the philanthropist went bust during the loan period? Potentially the loco could be run into the ground and there would be no money for the promised overhaul. A very tricky situation! Better that we have people like Jeremy Hosking who are prepared to actually own their own locos and put money into the movement in that way. If Pete Waterman was really worried about having a great loco back on the rails, perhaps he might care to look down the storage sidings at Crewe and consider his very own 7027...


    Keith
     
  14. martin butler

    martin butler Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2008
    Messages:
    3,440
    Likes Received:
    384
    the problem with 4472 is that people have in the past thought that its a licence to earn money , but in reality only a very select number of people have gotten out with their finances or reputation intact and there is the feeling with in the movement that unless its properly managed and the engine looked after this time , it will be more of the same , but why did so many owners with one exception, who knew where to get out , end up going bancrupt , i have my own ideas why, but im not going to air them on here , but there is one link that can be traced thoughout the story
     
  15. 242A1

    242A1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2006
    Messages:
    957
    Likes Received:
    347
    I have been thinking about the overhaul history of the locomotive. The engine was not in the greatest of conditions in 1963, it had received an overhaul fairly recently but with steam rapidly being phased out, it would not have been given the quality and thoroughness of attention it would have been given a decade and more earlier. It was sent to Hunslet Works in 1969 and I dare say that at the time nobody expected it to be working some 40 years later. So when did the engine last receive a full overhaul in the truest sense of the term? The recent work at Southall is very much under a cloud. If I recall correctly Carnforth sent it to Vickers in Barrow, who are not locomotive builders. So, could it have been in the late 1950s? If that were the case it is little wonder the current work is taking the time and resources it is doing.
     
  16. dp266

    dp266 Member Account Suspended

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2008
    Messages:
    374
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Project Management
    Location:
    County Palatine of Lancaster
    Good Order? Handed back to NRM in the same condition it was taken from them... simples
     
  17. Cambrian55

    Cambrian55 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2007
    Messages:
    411
    Likes Received:
    167
    Occupation:
    Engineer.
    Location:
    Deganwy mainly.
    In the same condition as it was taken from them, in kit form, don't think NRM would be very happy about that.. simple, I think not.
     
  18. Guest

    Guest Part of the furniture Account Suspended

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    3,646
    Likes Received:
    21
    Occupation:
    Occasional
    Location:
    G C & N S
    "Simples" indeed! - how good are you at contract drafting and supervision, and how much do lawyers charge to sort out issues arising??

    The NRM are right to chuck this back with contempt. As I said - make it £500k p.a. plus a clearing bank guarantee to cover re-instatement at the end of the contract, and then you will see how serious is the proposal.

    £500k looks like a quarter of the cost of this overhaul so I am only too pleased that the NRM recognised an offer at that levelfor the impertinence it was
     
  19. richards

    richards Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2008
    Messages:
    4,114
    Likes Received:
    914
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    As we've seen with the current overhaul, the NRM seems to have a different approach to other projects in that they want to "conserve" as well as "restore" the loco. If this deal had gone ahead, I'm sure the NRM would have wanted to keep a very close eye on the overhaul at the end of the hire period. Or get it done by someone who has done similar work for the NRM, such as the Flour Mill who did the Beattie well-tank and T9.

    Richard
     
  20. saltydog

    saltydog Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    2,566
    Likes Received:
    70
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Birmingham
    The two words that jump out of this post are 'true philanthropist'. I take that to mean someone who is willing to put his own money into seeing an icon of the steam age running on the mainline at no cost to the owner, be it privately owned or owned by the nation, ie. the taxpayer, and with no profit motive in mind.
    Any one care to come up with the name of such a person?
    Then again maybe it would be a bad idea to name such an individual. I can think of at least three engines that I could put forward as worthy candidates
     

Share This Page