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Flying Scotsman

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by 73129, Aug 24, 2010.

  1. goldfish

    goldfish Resident of Nat Pres

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    I know :)

    But.

    Maybe you’re too young, but for me the iconic standout factor visually for Flying Scotsman as a child was 100% the second tender. Literally no other engine I saw had one. And it featured in some of the most familiar video/film imagery of the loco at the time, particularly from the 68 Edinburgh trip. It even merited an Awdry story, truly the sacred text or holy scripture of junior rail enthusiasts of the time. Just ask Henry!

    And it’s not like Bittern’s using it at the moment, I’m sure it’s just a few days work to turn it back into a water carrier… ;)

    Simon
     
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  2. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Erm, 60525 was one of the newest Pacifics on Eastern Region and lasted a little over 15 years. All of Sir Nigel's Pacifics predated that by some years. The conversion of the A3s as I've read it was because their performances were becoming somewhat lacking as a result of the deterioration of coal quality. An A3 was a Class 7 but after the double chimney was fitted, they were reckoned to be equal to a Class 8. Also the improved fuel economy paid for the conversion in fairly short order. Thompson must have thought the Kylchap arrangement to have been a good idea as all his Pacifics were so fitted.
     
  3. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Bittern's second tender is already a water carrier so arguably just a quick once over and a repaint.
     
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  4. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    I did say “A3s” - the point of including the A2s (which has been lost on you) was that the single chimney locos that remained unmodified to the end of their working lives also worked right up to the point of the end steam like their kylchap fitted compatriots.

    Funny, after a few years trying to extol Thompson’s virtues to you, that you finally recognize one of his good decisions! ;)
     
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  5. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    It was Scotsman’s originally, after all.
     
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  6. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    *Originally??*
     
  7. peckett

    peckett Member

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    Shed master at 34A Kings Cross ,P.N Townsend in his book Top shed ,he was the man that thought of the idea ,and organised the conversion of the A4/3 s to Kylcap double blast pipes and chimney.Quotes, it cost just £200 each ,and saves 7 pound of coal.per mile Savings would be done after a few weeks not years.
    The idea of the German type smoke deflectors was also his , the Kylcap loco 's were gived trouble wth their soft exchust ,obstructing the drivers vision for miles on end,he had seen photo's of German 01 pacifics and got Doncaster to give it a go.Kings Cross was given the chance of trying it out and was very successful from the first day
    As for 60103 ,it was'nt considered up to much when it was shedded at 38C Leicester,had a mate ,a passed cleaner, he went on loan to 34E Neasden GC ,and worked on it several times ,he prefered the V2s.When it was transferd back to the GN section, and received the double chimney etc,it sparkled.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2022
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  8. 60017

    60017 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Prior to 1941 there were issues with patents and licencing. Well covered here...

    https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/when-did-the-kylchap-exhaust-patent-expire.227352/#post-5500894
     
  9. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

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    But we all have different childhood memories, my first sighting of an A3 was at the age of 9 when we were visiting my mother's family in March ( the place not the month!) and my older cousin took me to see the East Coast Sunday diversions. They would have all been single chimney then, later spotting days they would have been double chimney, some with trough deflectors and some not.
    Who would have thought that 62 years later I would be able to go back to that same spot by the station level crossing in March and see an A3 again.

    1330 60103 March 19-04-18.jpg
     
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  10. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    As a “second tender”. It certainly led a life before that!
     
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  11. goldfish

    goldfish Resident of Nat Pres

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    So I guess this depends on whether you think the icon is Flying Scotsman or ‘A3s’, I’d always lean on the former.
    I love that photo. As a child, with the help of my Dad, we (likely halfarsedly) transformed my Hornby 4472 into 60106 Flying Fox, with the deflectors and all. I was incredibly proud of it, and it’s by far my favourite outline for A3s.

    I think you’d struggle to describe it as an iconic look though - emblematic maybe, not least because the A3s were the only class to be fitted with the German deflectors (from memory). But unlikely to have registered with the public at large.

    Where FS’s iconic image is very much Apple Green.

    I wonder if the public at large even realise that FS had nearly 80 sisters, in the same way that people are surprised to learn that Titanic was one of three… sometimes awareness of individual entities is bigger than their type, and that’s what makes them icons.

    Simon
     
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  12. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    So why have Vintage trains gone to the expense of creating and using one, they must consider it an advantage?
     
  13. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

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    To the general public the icon is FS and I doubt if many know that it wasn't unique, not helped by inaccurate representation in the media. The Robson Green documentary suggested it was derailed by striking miners in 1926 among other adventures, it was actually Harvester.
    To a 9 year old there was nothing iconic about an A3 compared with my first encounter with an A4, I can still remember the name, it was 60029 Woodcock.
    I would be well impressed if you managed to convert the tender to a coal rail version for 60106! With railway preservation anything is possible, here's FS masquerading as 60106 on the Nene Valley Railway in 1994, complete with the wrong tender.

    60106 (60103) Ferry Meadows 06-05-94.jpg
     
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  14. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    They probably do: that’s for their business case. I’m talking as an individual observing what I do, day in and day out. There’s not many many additional water carriers out there being used at present which is probably an indication.
     
  15. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    That's very condescending of you "probably do", could you not bring yourself to agree they must do?
     
  16. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Not really: you’re trying to make it condescending.

    I don’t have the details of their business case. I’m not decrying them, far from it.

    Ralph, you really must stop jumping on everything I say as some sort of personal points scoring exercise.

    It’s very unprofessional of you.
     
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  17. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    Regarding second tenders, lets have a look at why the one that was latterly run with Bittern is no longer used. The way that it is set up it becomes part of the loco when attached and it is no easier to detach it from the loco than the "first"tender. So it cannot be dropped off anywhere. Up until the time when it ceased being used about a decade ago the only real disadvantage to it was the inabilityto turn the loco on a turntable because obviously it wouldnt fit. But now it would need to be fitted with TPWS as it would potentially become the leading end of the locomotive when running tender first. The expense of doing this is not worth the limited use it would get. If you want to cart more water around with you, I would suggest that Vintage Trains have the right idea. Their tank fitted GUV is part of the train consist and not part of the loco.

    Peter
     
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  18. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

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    An additional problem would be that when it was reversing with two tenders regulations required a goods brake van to be attached to the rear tender. There are no such vehicles on NR now and the simplified layouts at many stations would make attaching it a somewhat complicated process.
     
  19. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Given how much fun the folks at La'al Ratty have, every time an RH&DR loco rocks up at Ravenglass, I'd imagine turning the whole kit'n'kaboodle could be a bit of a swine, too.
     
  20. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    That's because he was copying Sir Nigel. :p
    Seriously though, had the licensing fee not been a problem, I'm sure Sir Nigel would have equipped more or even all of his Pacifics with Kylchap exhausts over time.
    He recognised the benefits but it seems the board didn't think them worth the up front costs. Probably short sighted.
     
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