Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by 73129, Aug 24, 2010.
6 fitted, 6 due back from Tyseley soon
Bang on Frank - exactly our rationale when reasoning out the pros and cons of restreamlining 6229, much as I loved it as 46229...
Precisely, yes it would be nice to have another Duchess operational, but certainly not at the cost of losing the 'as was when taken out of service' example.
But it was built to steam. Not sit in a museum. Nothing beats the sight of a duchess steaming on the mainline. And as much as i like the other two i want to see a city working. Maybe Im young enough for a change of opinion on her.
Back on topic. How likely is it we Will see scotsman running in 2011. Is there a big list of jobs left to do.
But you can't tell him much. :nod:
Buy a set of nameplates (Not City of Salford!) and make the owners of 6233 an £ offer for their loco to carry them for a while - simples.
This argument will run and run as long as there are enthusiasts and museums. And not just for locomotives - for buses, computers, aircraft, even musical instruments. I've been on before and I refer all to the definition of a museum. I agree that the best form of interpretation is to operate, but what will we learn from a green 46235 running that 6233 or 46229 couldn't tell us? And why break and wear out another when there may not be the work for it? It's causing no grief and costing no money in Brum. Take it out and the worry starts.
As for 4472, how likely? Very, I'd say.
Anthony wouldn't it have been easier to fit the wheels at Bury than at York as it's going back to Bury to fit the boiler isn't it.
Let's be honest here, 4472's bottom half going together at the NRM is something visitors can see. It's not just a case of fitting the wheels. Hopefully, more money will be donated towards the overhaul.
Wheels can go in on the wheeldrop then all the other bits go on at York, rods, motion etc before reboilering. It's also where the axleboxes etc are. On the subject of money, the appeal is now approaching £200k, with an aim of £250k, the end is in sight.
Or you might have acquired a more mature and informed outlook by then!
Excuse me but who gives you the right to say my opinion is wrong. If your so mature why try to insult me. And i will never agree that a loco should be in a museum. No matter if its original paint.
Everyone has the right to say another's opinion is wrong. Otherwise, how could you possibly have an argument?
I think you'll find that there are more locomotives on display in museums than are actually running.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, none are wrong. Some are better received than others, there is a long history of opinions that could be translated as "I think that someone should restore loco XYZ for me" without any regard for cost, usefulness, duplication etc etc. Those ones don't go down too well at times.
I know this is digressing from the topic of 4472's overhaul a little but I fear that Gav106 & TBF's argument is missing an important point: in the next few years, the railway preservation movement is going to struggle to keep the locos and rolling stock currently in use in working order. Michael Draper said something similar 20+ years ago. Thankfully, his warnings have proved to be premature. Although his timescales were wrong, I fear his analysis was basically correct.
The "old hands" that have rescued and restored our steam fleet are themselves wearing out and moving on, and though there are a few youngsters getting involved and taking their places, many more are leaving than are arriving. Amongst other effects, this means that more work has to be contracted out, pushing up the price of restoration and maintenance.
Lack of manpower and lack of money is going to mean an increasing number of projects abandoned, and locomotives laid aside. Therefore, it is better to leave well-cared-for examples such as City Of Birmingham in their museums and concentrate on those that have a continuing working history beyond 1968 and the scrap yards. To bring this back on-topic, 4472 is a prime example of such a loco. She can be best "preserved" and "interpreted" by keeping her active, and continuing her development.
Mark - she also epitomises the argument, as the last A3 that we have. Do we run her as the sole example, or conserve her as too precious to run?
The points which you make are absolutely right and have been widely aired. Luckily there is a new generation coming up in this activity to carry the torch forward, albeit there are always the few who want toys instead of history. I couldn't agree more, and have already said myself in other threads, that as the "preserving generation" passes away that the upcoming business managers will concentrate on the locos most likely to earn their keep or keep their owning lines alive.
With the duchesses there is the ability to satisfy all criteria - well all sensible criteria anyway.
There needs to be a balance. No-one wants all the current stock to be pickled in aspic but having static displays in Museums does provide a focal point and spark interest in all generations. All my kids were born long after BR steam but visits to NRM etc have provoked an interest.
When a well preserved example hits the mainline, people think back to what they have seen in the Museum and want to ride behind one. Like it or not 4472 is still the iconic engine. Blame Blue Peter - TV not loco - for all the stuff they did years ago for placing that icon in the mind.
On the duchesses, its not like there is not any other engines of the class that will be returned to use, so leave City of Birmingham where it is, if you want to see a working duchess you have 2 that are most likily to at some stage see a return to active use, after all why else was 6229 ,s casing done to fit modern loading gauge? so that is still a possibility, isnt it ? 4472 is a different case she is after all the last remaining A3, but is so well known , if another A3 had survived, them yes she could have been stuffed and mounted , but she is a special case and will be best preserved as a working engine
Ref the earlier comment that the "old" generation is being worn out and not being replaced, I don't think this is the case. To take the NYMR as an example, the foreman boilersmith started out there as an apprentice, and his department is virtually building new boilers now, and the next generations of apprentices are following on. Pete Waterman's apprentice scheme is gradually gearing up to turn out a lot more apprentices properly trained and it is my belief that railways with any sense will work with him to ensure that training standards are both good and uniform. You could argue that the number of volunteers trained in engineering may fall, but on the bigger railways I think that most of the work needed to keep a fleet in service is probably carried out by paid staff these days. I purposely use the word most, because I'm well aware that there are exceptions, before anyone starts to feel the need to list them!
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