FR & WHR & WHHR News

There are quite a few technical reasons why WHHR trains don't venture onto the WHR very often. The main one is that WHHR rolling stock is air braked, the FR is Vacuum. So should a train fail in section there is now way to recover it at the moment. Russell is the only WHHR loco suitable for running on the WHR as there are concerns about water capacity of Gertrude and none of the diesels are fast enough to recover a stranded train. So until either the WHHR has a dual braked train set or a suitable recovery loco you are unlikely to see any of their stock running around normal WHR services.

Secondly none of the WHHR locos are what is know as "red day exempt" i.e. they have appropriate and tested spark arresting equipment both on the ashpan and in the smokebox. So could only run on a "green day" after substantial rain. Especially up a 1 in 40 through a forest!

Thirdly Russell has only been gauged on the Waunfawr to Caernarfon section when it visited in 2000. So a gauging trail would be required on the rest of the railway. This takes time and needs to be done in daylight. Not so easy to fit around the high summer service.

Finally there are operational issues with the junction at Pen-y-mount. The ultimate aim is for it to be properly signaled with Miniature ETS on this section rather than Staff and Ticket as it has now. However the FR is still exploring the options for adopting METS on the WHR so the signalling scheme. is yet to be finalised. This makes movements in and out difficult while normal services are running.

The two organisations get along much more than they ever have in the past and it was only a few weeks ago the the FR lent some rolling stock for a WHHR event, now a regular occurrence. There are plenty of volunteers who work for both organisations too these days. There were concerns about the effectiveness of the single pipe air brake on long down hill gradients, but tests were done and that is another hurdle overcome. Just another example of the two organisations getting on. So it is more a question of ticking the right boxes to make sure the whole thing is safe and feasible rather than petty squabbling, or muscling in on other peoples turf etc.

Of course Russell could always double head on FR stock providing the a gauging run is done. But i think people would rather see it on an authentic train for it's return to the Aberglaslyn pass.

Obviously this is all third hand information just like post on the website mentioned earlier so i wouldn't get wound up drawing good vs evil comparisons based on this.

Tim

 

Before anybody starts on the "what if the 64 Company had succeeded " line there is one factor that has emerged which would have hampered their chances of success.

Regardless of any actions and motives of any of the organisations concerned, the FR had the only realistic chance of success because they took over the WHR as an existing railway that had NOT been
abandoned. This gave them the legal clout to deal with all the people who had encroached on the trackbed . You cant claim squatters rights to an existing railway (even if it has no track!).

The plan for the 64 Company, in concert with the local Authority, was subject to a condition from the Official Receiver that the Council apply for an Abandonment Order before they took possession
of the land. If I have understood the situation correctly, this meant that they would have to deal INDIVIDUALLY with each of the encroachers who would be claiming the equivalent of squatters rights!
I forget how many individual cases this would have involved but it must have been approaching 100.

That is my reading of the facts set out in the excellent Gordon Rushton book - there is a lot more of interesting background besides, well worth a look before you start indulging in the "what ifs?"

 

I think what most people would like is just some amicable long term cooperation so Russell (and in time the Baldwin) with some heritage stock can make it to Rhyd Ddu every so often.

 

Which is exactly what has been happening for several years now.

There are various FR items on display in the museum. The FR has regularly provided rolling stock to the WHHR for events over the last few years. Test trains have been run with WHHR rolling stock to see if it is feasible to run it on the WHR. The FR has provided a lever frame for refurbishment and use a Pen-y-mount to go in the signal box originally intended to be by the Cambrian crossing. WHHR stock has been fitted with FR chopper couplings, Gelert and Issac have run together on the WHR. Gelert has visited Dinas for a special event, and so on and so on.

You have to keep in mind that the running WHHR trains on the WHR is not at the top of the priority list for either railway. It is a sideshow to the core business of both lines so inevitably it is taking time.

Tim

 

If I were a marketing or management man in the TLC of Wales my thoughts on Russell would be: why hastily cobble a solution together and tack Russell onto an event which already has a theme, when you could spend time getting all the boxes ticked that Tim mentions and then make a big splash and have a specific 'Russell back on the Welsh Highland' weekend?

In fact throw in a few Englands and a Baldwin and have a Welsh Highland Vintage Weekend. Sounds good to me....

 

Meanwhile, Lilla enjoys a little exercise in Shrewsbury this afternoon. Not often I get to see narrow gauge steam on my way home from work!

Steve B

 

You ignore the fact that Russell couldn't pull today's trains. Frankly I think that the Garretts look wonderful in the landscape.

 

I frequently read posts mentioning them, but I have yet to enjoy the sight of a traction engine heading a train on the Welsh Highland Railway, can't wait!!

Cheers,

Alan

 

I was unaware of the Vacuum/Air brake discrepancy. Unless you mean Russel being underpowered, in which case Russell and a 'friend' would do just fine. If only there were a collection of underutilised England locos nearby that could be used.

The Garretts just look wrong to me. Almost all the welsh narrow gauge locomotives look small & quaint, the Garretts are huge, even compared to the double fairlies. They are so powerful that they spend very little time doing hard work. I have a video of Linda storming the hill out of Ffestiniog, taken from the observation car and it sounds tremendous. You just dont get that feeling from the Garretts.

I'm sure there are very good reasons for not using smaller locos and thrashing them, but there's nothing like it to sit and watch (and listen).

They are still a steam locomotive, and they have been restored beautifully, but just not the experience I expect from a narrow gauge line.

 

There you go, more traction engines, except that this time they are huge!!!

Cheers,

Alan

 

Clearly Guitar has never ridden on the 1 in 40 behind an NGG16, when they can be heard working very hard indeed. These engines are entirely right for the WHR of today with its heavy 10 carriage train services and look absolutely at home to me. The mini kettles of old were completely inadequate even back in the day when tourists were fewer in number and trains very much shorter. Two small engines = two crews. Hardly an economic proposition. Two further points. Russell in the 90s was equipped with vacuum brakes; why isn't it now? And for heavens sake, get the spelling right: GarrAtts are articulated steam locomotives, GarrEtts are traction engines.

 

But you forget, Guitar thinks that the original Rocket is useless as it can't pull a train

 

I prefer to see the Garratts on the WHR. As you point out almost every other welsh narrow gauge line has small and quaint locos. Go to any other railway if you want to see 'little' engines. Go to VoR if you want to see something as big as a standard gauge pannier tank running on 2' rail. Go to WHR if you want to see something even bigger running on the 2'.

I never fail to be impressed sitting in the beer garden at Spooners when the WHR train rolls in 6 feet away from me.

 

.....very good point about the crews....is this possibly the reason why in the summer season there are only two trains running and over a long distance like that........i think there is room for smaller trains from the WHHR to run a smaller distance, as far as i can see there really is no excuse why not.......i personally find the whole situation shameful even more so knowing that i made a financial contribution towards the re-construction...............time will tell as it always does........

 

I suspect also that there is a fear that a Port-Bed service would undercut the full service and without the Secondary spend on the trains and in Spooners too!!! Although didn't the WHHR only want to run to Pont C anyway??? I have noticed a major cut-back in train services recently and not just during the recession :-(

Will

 

I've ridden the entire FR/WHR in one day (took some doing with the 2012 timetable), and the FR many times previous to that.
They sound good going up the 1 in 40, but the rest of the time they aren't doing much, was my point. 10 minutes of a 2 hr ride.

Is finding loco crews a problem? My experience of pretty much every railway is there are far more drivers than available loco's. Maybe the FR/WHR is different? And if were going to start looking at everything in terms of economy, then you end up scrapping the steam and using diesels. See the Snowdown Mountain Railway for example, a horrible proposition.

Duly noted, apologies.

 

I think Will is correct, shorter WHHR services starting from Port would switch passengers and takings away from the main line RhE.
No-one has yet commented about Russell's lack of vacuum brakes. She was so equipped for her visit to the FR back in 1990, and as the photo comparison below shows, she still had the pipework, at least, as late as 2000 (left). However by 2014/15 (right) she was air-braked only. Why was this? Retention of vacuum brakes would have made her use on the RhE that much easier.

 

The vacuum gear was, as I understand it, located in one of the coal bunkers, so it was a choice between retention of a rarely used asset (for day to day WHHR use) or halving the operating range between recoalings. Additionally, there was a brief to return the loco to as close to as-delivered condition as possible, and in NWNGR days Russell had air brakes only.

John

 

Was there always a conflict in Braking systems then back in't day or was the FfR once air braked???

Will

 

Would you prefer that they'd be put aside and effectively made redundant, while the smaller and (most crucially) elderly FR engines and Russell struggle to maintain a basic service, with heavy 10 coach trains along a very strenuous route?

One thing I realised early on as well, that folks tend to overlook, is that the WHR has never really been about a heritage image. The original railway closed in the 1930s and few if any people survive now to remember what it was like, and the locomotives it had were few in number, inadequate for the line, and were essentially mostly FR engines anyway. So in other words the WHR doesn't really have a heritage image of it's own, the main image it provokes and advertises to people around world today is instead it's virtually unparalleled spectacular views.

Essentially it's railway where motive power in all honesty is irrelevant to the vast majority, it's the journey itself with it's views and a comfortable pleasent ride that's the core attraction. The railway could so easily be run by large diesels instead and would attract visitors in droves, but steam motive power does tend to add to the attraction and overall value of the experience, so in order to meet the challenge of the demands of this railway, the bigger Garratts and in time NG15s are considered the best solution.

And finally I should point out that you seem to be overlooking the fact that if we went your way (practicalities and economics aside), we would pretty much be abandoning machines that are equally important to our steam heritage and are well deserving attraction in their own right: the Garratts themselves.

Surely your not someone who's suggesting that their irrelevant and should removed are you...? There are very few places in the world that can still use a Garratt effectively, and the list is getting ever smaller, to such a point where the WHR may become the only place in the world where you can see a narrow gauge Garratt in operation. Now I'd say that's something worthwhile to have preserved and treasured, wouldn't you?