If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

FR & WHR & WHHR News

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by AndrewT, Jul 17, 2012.

  1. meeee

    meeee Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2006
    Messages:
    864
    Likes Received:
    1,319
    There are currently 11 bogies in total. 7 are available for traffic, 2 are withdrawn, and the other 2 are really an incomplete collection of old parts.

    Of the 7 in service three are fitted with piston valves to work under Tal and DLG. The increased boiler pressure and superheat on these locos caused problems with the valves and valve gear. The piston valves were introduced to cure this problem rather than improve performance. I doubt it would really be worth the expense to fit them to the other bogies. Especially as the cylinders are still in good condition.

    The two bogies under DLG have a different design of rod ends with marine style brasses. These are easier and cheaper to make but the down side is you get a lot of clanking from the side play.

    The four slide valves cylinders are broadly the same. There are differences due to the build dates as there are with all the bogies but improvements are usually indrouced at overhaul that brings them to similar standard. Things like removable wear plates on the axle boxes for example.

    The set that The Square now sits on were in poor condition with really old frames and also full of oddball modifications. The main culprit was the wheels which had both bigger diameter axles and wider bosses. This was to cure a problem with wheels working loose. The real issue was that the wheels were old and not manufactured to the correct standard. Rather than the actual design of the axle. Anyway the knock on effect is that the the wheels had to fit in the same frames. So the axle boxes have a bigger hole in the middle, consequently they are weaker and frequently crack. The cylinders had to be packed out because the wheels are wider and counterweights added, so the monoblock wouldn't fit. You could probably rebuild them but it would take some careful thinking about the frames and axle boxes if you were going to re-use the wheels. The area around the horns is already a weak point of the double engine bogie. This is why it was easier to build new for the DLG.

    Tim
     
  2. fergusmacg

    fergusmacg Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2008
    Messages:
    6,573
    Likes Received:
    3,951
    Occupation:
    Design Engineer
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Does the new boiler for JS2 have the same increased boiler pressure and superheat as DLG and if so could it have potential problems with slide valve fitted bogies?
     
    30854 likes this.
  3. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Cheers (@meeee) Tim. I think I'm now beginning to appreciate the reason EoM was designed with the possible application of outside Walschaerts valve gear in mind, back in the 1970s!

    .... and that's a big "+1" on @fergusmacg's post too. :)
     
  4. meeee

    meeee Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2006
    Messages:
    864
    Likes Received:
    1,319
    The shortcomings of the Hunslet boilers were addressed by the modifications made and so far the problem hasn't resurfaced. The issue now is simply one of age. The main concern is grooving above the foundation ring as a result of a poor treatment regime in their early years. Merddin has had new plate put in the lower inner fireboxes at the last overhaul. Last year a crack developed in the outer firebox at a similar level and had to be repaired which suggests that will also need replacement in the not too distant future. The fireboxes on the square are thought to be in worse shape. So you can see the problem looming on the horizon.

    The DLG boiler is approaching 30 years old now but is in good shape. The main issue has been stay cracking. They are being replaced with a different design as access allows which has solved the issue.

    The new boiler is essentially a DLG style shell with Hunslet style inner fireboxes and tube layouts and foundation ring. There is only single row superheat and 160psi pressure like the Hunslet boilers. There are a few differences as well. The first one has been a bit of a learning curve for everyone but it is not far off hydraulic test time. No doubt the next one will be easier.

    Tim
     
    30854 and fergusmacg like this.
  5. Dunfanaghy Road

    Dunfanaghy Road Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2019
    Messages:
    1,252
    Likes Received:
    1,566
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Alton, Hants
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Some shots of 1 of the pair stored at Minffordd when I visited in 2018.

    Don't know why, but I can't upload. McAfee is happy, so I'm stumped.
    Pat
     
  6. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Messages:
    3,498
    Likes Received:
    6,845
    Location:
    Here, there, everywhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    As one of the first new build locomotives and the loco that hauled the first passenger train to BF, its place in both the FR's history and the wide preservation movement makes it too important to have stuffed or hidden away.

    It's design reflects the needs of the time. I certainly prefer it to the mock Tudor DLG.

    Anyway, not that it needs much love, I remember when Linda was converted to coal firing, i had a trip behind Linda, after three blows up in the woods, they decided to swap Linda with EoM at TyB. So EoM, did up, half way down, halfway back up and then all the way back. (I can't remember how many trips you were supposed to do without refuelling but I think most locos had to refuel at port between turns. (Which was why you either changed locos or had a longer layover))
     
    andrewshimmin likes this.
  7. meeee

    meeee Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2006
    Messages:
    864
    Likes Received:
    1,319
    The issue of locos being hidden away will hopefully be addressed by the Boston Lodge HLF project if it gets through stage 2. I have no doubt that the Square will run again even if it is a fair few years away yet. One thing the JS2 project does do is ensure the Square isn't rebuilt with a traditional outline as was once the plan.

    Tim.
     
  8. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    So, for EoM:

    option "A" would be best pair of overhauled bogies and overhauled boiler
    option "B" full rebuild of an existing pair of bogies and overhauled boiler
    option "C" new pair of bogies and overhauled boiler
    option "D" new bogies, new boiler
    option "X" do nothing, beyond ensuring the loco desn't deteeiorate unduly
    option "Y" cosmetic restoration for display
    option "Z" ever wondered what EoM would look like at Devil's Bridge?

    "X" is pretty much the current position and where's there space for "Y" anyway? ..... plus ..... who want's to see a stuffed Fairlie, when a living, breathing one is hauling their train? "Z" is, in all honesty, a bit tongue in cheek.

    Straight away, safe to say "D" could only be justified by a serious surge in passenger numbers and "A" whilst it would prove cheapest, mightn't represent good value for money, as the loco would scarcely be anyone's preferred choice for regular, heavy frontline use.

    Of the remaining scenarios, "C" would be contingent on an agreed 'standard power bogie', which seems not to exist, in wbich case (and assuming an available pair of bogies is in sufficiently reasonable condition to permit rebuilding) "B" is the last option standing. IMO the liklihood is that there's little scope for much (beyond perhaps preparing bogies) to happen ahead of either ME and / or DLG getting a new boiler.
     
  9. Dunfanaghy Road

    Dunfanaghy Road Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2019
    Messages:
    1,252
    Likes Received:
    1,566
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Alton, Hants
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Try again . . .
    Are these the bogies recovered from Earl of Merioneth when it went into store?
    Pat
     

    Attached Files:

    marshall5 likes this.
  10. meeee

    meeee Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2006
    Messages:
    864
    Likes Received:
    1,319
    Yes these are the ones now under James Spooner. The Earl is now on the withdrawn pair.

    The demand on these locos is actually quite high. Typically the railway really needs two in service each day and a hot spare. But ideally to maintain that situation you need to rotate four. Two in service, one spare, one under overhaul. A pair of bogies can easily be turned around in a winter, but boilers take a bit longer. I think with everything going on with the Boston Lodge development it might be a while before that happens, but in long term that is an aim you could quite easily justify. The usual question is how much cash have you got.

    Tim
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2020
    30854 and Kempenfelt 82e like this.
  11. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
  12. LesterBrown

    LesterBrown Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2009
    Messages:
    995
    Likes Received:
    761
    Location:
    Devon
    A Hydrogen green clean train would have publicity value but a more pragmatic and perhaps greener train for that particular line would probably be a battery electric loco.

    (Though personally I'd rather see Welsh Pony or the new Mountaineer at the head of my train).
     
  13. DcB

    DcB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2018
    Messages:
    1,339
    Likes Received:
    421
    Location:
    Surrey
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Whilst having a look at the Weymouth tram thread found this video from 1997 at the FR testing flywheel technology which was then used at Stourbridge.

    The hydrogen technology is perhaps more efficient and does use some lithium batteries, but has potentially greater range and less charging problems.
    Looks like the test train "hydrogen hero" is currently 300m gauge, so unless regauged will have to have a small track at Boston Lodge to allow testing of the technology in the summer with the University of Birmingham.
    Something worth doing for a cost effective eventual replacement of diesel on the mainline.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2020
    Goldie and 30854 like this.
  14. Dunfanaghy Road

    Dunfanaghy Road Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2019
    Messages:
    1,252
    Likes Received:
    1,566
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Alton, Hants
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I went to a talk by Adrian Shooter last week. He gave the relative efficiency of battery v. hydrogen as 69:19 (%) based on the same input from the grid. (This includes the hydrolysis of water to produce the hydrogen.) He does have a fast charging technology to sell, of course ;), but it does make sense. Add in the transport and storage (on and off train) of a potentially very dangerous gas and I wonder whether it is worth the trouble.
    Pat
     
  15. Wenlock

    Wenlock Well-Known Member Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2008
    Messages:
    2,027
    Likes Received:
    1,319
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Bus Driver
    Location:
    Loughton Essex
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The bus industry has been experimenting with battery and hydrogen technology for a while. Despite experience with two different batches of hydrogen fuelled vehicles, TfL seem to be going for battery electric in a much bigger way. The challenge at present is whether to try to charge overnight for a full shift's work, or to rely on opportunity charging, either at each terminal or at selected places en-route. They don't yet seem to have decided whether to use retractable roof mounted collectors to an over head supply, or contactless induction charging from road mounted supply plates.
     
  16. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,105
    Likes Received:
    57,436
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    It’s a bit of a myth that hydrogen is a “very dangerous gas”, I think driven by a selective memory of the images of the Hindenburg and other 1930s airships.

    Yes, it is flammable. But so is petrol, and we transport millions of gallons of that around the country on a daily basis without worrying about it unduly. If you have a leak of hydrogen without ignition, because it is so light it will very rapidly disperse harmlessly into the atmosphere, rising quickly above any ignition sources. By contrast, spill petrol without ignition and the liquid hangs about under a layer of vapour just waiting for a passing ignition source, presenting a serious hazard to those involved in cleaning it up. Just look at the periodic tragedies you get in places like Nigeria when people try to tap into petrol lines from distilleries to steal fuel, with inevitable consequences.

    Any high energy density material will have risks. But I’d say the risks inherent in petrol are considerably greater than those inherent in hydrogen, but we still manage to have procedures to handle large volumes in relative safety. No reason why similar protocols won’t develop to handle hydrogen with similar levels of safety.

    Tom
     
  17. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    8,069
    Likes Received:
    5,165
    I'm hesitating to cause this thread to drift further into technology, but take as an excuse the history of the FR being a demonstration site once before (for the Fairlie concept). Can anyone here explain why the quoted efficiency of electricity to hydrogen to electricity is so low?
     
  18. Wenlock

    Wenlock Well-Known Member Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2008
    Messages:
    2,027
    Likes Received:
    1,319
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Bus Driver
    Location:
    Loughton Essex
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I think my only real concern with Hydrogen is the need to carry it around under great pressure in order to get useful amounts on a relatively small vehicle. I know that compressed gases are regularly transported by road, but I must admit to sometimes feeling a little nervous around bottle carrying delivery lorries. Fire services seem to share my concerns hence their exclusion zones around any fire involving gas cylinders.
     
  19. meeee

    meeee Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2006
    Messages:
    864
    Likes Received:
    1,319
    95% of hydrogen production currently comes from fossil fuels rather than hydrolysis.

    At this particular location there is a hydroelectric power plant at one terminus. So you have a supply of green energy already without either having to import or produce hydrogen. I would have thought the duties of the loco would lend itself to batteries rather than something more complex.

    Tim
     
    marshall5 likes this.
  20. mdewell

    mdewell Well-Known Member Friend

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2005
    Messages:
    1,653
    Likes Received:
    2,564
    Occupation:
    UK & Ireland Heritage Railways Webmaster
    Location:
    Ruabon, Wrexham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I can't explain the conversion process, but it seems obvious that anything that involves compressing a gas (or liquid) takes a lot of effort (aka energy) and is therefore inherently inefficient.
     

Share This Page