Fully Coaled Withdrawn Loco's

I call Urban Myth

those fairly new Castles would have been ten to fifteen years old at which stage it's a fair bet they needed shopping just as much as a 1923 example still running. Don't forget also that BR hired some Halls and Castles back from scrap merchants for a short time to cover diesel failures and this could have been the source of the story of decrepit Castles being kept running

 

I believe the comment about the early withdrawal of new castles comes from one of Adrian Vaughns books, where he described riding on one of the early batch (which went damn well but rode like a bag of nails) whilst passing nearly brand new machines parked up. Thats a fair point about shopping, but bear in mind they were passing up nearly new machines for fitting with double chimneys (some of which were withdrawn after only a year) and much newer ones (such as 7037 Swindon, the newest built) withdrawn with a single chimney.

I suppose one has to be realistic here and say there is no real evidence of conspiracy . Its probably more likely its just W/R parking up newer machines and keeping decrepit ones running to make the case for more Diesel locomotives (all our stock needs reworking, we need more type 3s!) Or its just plain mismanagement. After all, GWR HAD done something similar back in the 20s when they withdrew most of the grouped welsh machines as unsuitable (when many were entirely usable) and introducing a new locomotive (56xx) to replace them with inadequate testing so they broke down, and so quickly required that they had to go to Armstrong Whitworth to make up the numbers. Doh!

That said, I shall have to take a look on the National archive and see if anything has come up about the steam reserve though. As WR was the first to withdraw steam, it presumably would have shown up there first if it has any validity.

 

Much as I enjoy Adrian Vaughan's books, unbiased historical records they are not, not by a long chalk.

 

If there was ever even an intention to set up a strategic reserve it would have been covered by the Official Secrets Act. No classified document, whether held by British Railways or by the then War Department, would have been allowed to be parcelled up with all the other railway documents handed over to the National Archives. It would have to be returned to the WD or destroyed. In the case of the former, if it had been subject to the 30 year rule, someone would have found it by now. So, either:

a) it was subject to a longer period (100 years?) before release,
b) it is still extant for modern locomotives, or
c) it never existed.

How do I know about the workings of the OSA? Don't ask, I could not tell you.

 

Or even £665.99 - the recommended retail price of the Beast.

 

How about this?

25.8069758 - the root of all evil...

I'll get my coat.

All the best,

Team 4079

 

I really must change that. Its a habit I got into when I was doing online multiplayer. Ive no personal desire for the end of the world, as it has a terrible effect on historic railway infrastructure. I mean, imagine what Brunel would say about the mess involved. Anyway, have fun.:high5:

As for covered by the official secrets act, no not necessarily. If the objective was not to set up a pool of locomotives for the aftermath of a nuclear war (which always struck me as rather unlikely for a variety of reasons) but to have locomotives available if the price of diesel went through the roof (as latterly appeared might happen in the 1970s) its would have nothing to do with the MOD and would be purely a British Railways matter. Bear in mind the Government did fund the conversion of locomotives in 1947 to oil because it was perceived coal would be unavailable due to sale abroad, then when the price of oil spiraled out of control they had to rethink it. So it wouldnt be the first time energy supply affected Locomotive policy, and it didnt affect the W/D then either.

So I can think of a number of reasons why BR might keep a number of locos back from the scrapman for a short period, not least availabity in case those diesel turn out to be a flop. I dont personally believe there were caverns under the Mendips full of them.
Thats the problem about those who think there may have been a strategic reserve for a short period. They tend to get lumped in with those who believe in secret sidings in box tunnel stuffed full of Counties, Granges and Blue Pullmans. Which happy thought it may be, is obvious nonsense. Nobody in their right mind would have held onto a Blue Pullman.

 

I suspect even that is overstating the case. Consider: the whole fleet was going for razorblades, and management was attempting to organise a huge amount of change in a short period, and the executive at WR had just had a major transform anyway. Is it really likely that much effort would have been spent on making sure they kept the best 'n' Castles in service and scrapped the worst, which could not have been done without an enormous amount of effort transferring locos from shed to shed? I suggest not.

What surely would have happened was that each month or whatever each shed would be told to take so many locos of each class out of service. AIUI withdrawal happened at different rates from different sheds. So a shed that had so far withdrawn few Castles would still be running tired locos, but a shed that had withdrawn the majority of the fleet would be sidelining ones that were still in decent order. I just cannot imagine a situation where management would say, "well, OOC is due to withdraw 70xx which is diag A30 in good order, lets send it down to Oxley where they're still running 50xx which is due for shopping and is in A5 spec and we'll withdraw that instead." In an ideal world sure, but in a situation where the diesels were giving endless headaches and the new management wanted to demonstrate how big their male appendages were by being the first to eliminate steam... well, I reckon the last thing they'd be bothered about.

 

I recall reading somewhere that the build qualities of post war castles was substantially lacking compared to pre-war castles, and was blamed on the poorer post war metal quality.
I guess only Tyseley could comment having the only working post war castle.. is it / was it less than 5043 ?.. 5043 has definitely made it's mark (and recall 5051 doing the same).

Anyone else hear that ?

 

To get back on thread I would advise that I visited Cashmores at Newport and Woodhams at Barry on numerous occasions during the period 1964-1968 when Loco's were being delivered in very frequently and I can only ever remember seeing one Loco'...a 57xx, with any coal on board in any quantity. Most tender Loco's had been all but emptied before removal from Depot's and the earlier reference to what happened at Salisbury is correct in that Loco' tenders were emptied and the coal sold to local coal merchants. One would presume this would have been a general instruction to Depot staff at all remaining BR sheds and I'm sure there must be someone connected to this forum who was still working then and could confirm this to be the case, or advise us otherwise.

 

:biggrin1: Maybe the instruction "When that loco is cold, it can go to Barry" was misheard

 

My wife says that's on a par with my level of humour! :clap2:

 

He's just finished his job at the Xmas Cracker factory

 

Sounds like a reasonable explanation as to why Loco's in the 40XX & 50XX series got Double Chimneys and 4 row superheaters when some members of the 70XX series were overlooked.

I'm not sure if 5043 Vs 7029 would be too representative, Edgcumbe had a not insignificant amount of new parts during it's restoration whereas Clun, up to it's current overhaul at least anyway, still had a large amount of components that were fitted during it's last visit to Swindon, I'm not trying to suggest Swindon were sloppy in the 60's, but more that Tyseley these days achieve a higher standard.

 

I wonder if the fully coaled locs were regarded as stored at the time, rather than withdrawn? If they were coaled they could then be reinstated if required.

 

Which reminds me of the coal train that was derailed in 2002 (I think) at Dent Head. The wagons had to be laboriously recovered, but the coal just evaporated in the summer heat.

 

That explains why there were so many empty bunkers & tenders at Barry.

 

I would expect that it was more to do with the lack of manpower at depots, when engines were withdrawn the motion was to be taken down, pistons pushed forward and tied up tenders emptied of coal, in most cases it wouldnt be done, conecting rods would be removed ready for towing but that would be about it engines would then be moved away into store, and if an engine still had a full tender, it would be easy pickings, some scrapyards would probally sell on the coal, but i would imagine that with the cutters being on pease rate, they wouldnt hang around , then the tender would just be cut and the coal just allowed to fall to the ground

 

On the same topic. What happen to all the tools. Eg fireman's shovels,rakes,fire prickers and general loco cab tools once the loco was decommissioned at the end of steam. Did they stay with the loco and ended up at Barry?

Cheers