GCR "pullman" train

So is it a different colour? The rake looked like it carried shiny Pullman Umber/Cream in the images I saw, but then again I look through untrained eyes...

 

Well - yes and no! The "Compagnie Internationale des Wagon-Lits et des Grands Express Europeens" were the operator of luxuary services in Continental Europe, they did run some cars branded as "Pullman" - I believe on the "Golden Arrow" service in France.

Steven

 

I knew that a small number of British Pullman cars did run in Europe, but hadn't realised they were regarded as Pullman, rather rhan CIWL, cars. However, it would make sense on the Golden Arrow route to Paris to continue to brand them as Pullmans. However I don't believe that Pullman was a particularly well known brand in Europe generally.

 

Well Yes, and no. From 1906 CIWL had the naming rights for the Pullman brand anywhere in Europe apart from Britain. As well as the Fleche d'Or (Golden Arrow), there was also the Sud Express and le Train Bleu among others. Most of the cars in the VSOE are Pullman cars (though heavily upgraded and altered as the original Orient Express was never a luxury train).

The rake of coaches in the British Golden Arrow were not the same as the ones in the French Golden Arrow. Though identical the cars never crossed the channel. One of the French Cars is preserved in the French National Railway Museum at Mulhouse (See http://www.irps-wl.org.uk/4018.shtml)

As a side note, the only through service that ran from the UK to the Continent was the Night Ferry train of Wagons-Lits from Victoria, via Dover to Paris. This service ended 30 years ago yesterday! Again see http://www.irps-wl.org.uk/nightferry.shtml for info

If anyone is interested in some of the historic aspects of Pullmans or Wagons-Lits, or the current situation of Wagons-Lits Cars around Europe and our work in preserving them at the NVR then I can recomend The International Railway Preservation Society as an interesting website and read! (Though I may be a tad bias!)

 

I suppose the livery is more than just the colour, the wods "Great Central Pullman" daubed at knee height is not my cup of tea really. They could have made them look a bit more special.

 

Can I have a link to some images please?

 

The railway has received permission to call the train a 'Pullman service' and to operate it under names of previously famous rail services like Master Cutler, Golden Arrow and the White Rose.

 

This looks like them:
http://clive-hanley.fotopic.net/c1833353.html

Richard

 

This has been discussed before.

http://railways.national-preservation.com/showthread.php/22669-GCR-Creating-New-Dining-Set

 

The CIWL cars in Pullman livery are identical to other cars used in the Blue/While CIWL livery (and possibly some of the blue kitchen cars, although I suspect not) but were to Berne not UK loading gauge.

That said, quiote a few of the CIWL cars were built in the UK - I believe by Met Camm, builder of many British Pullman cars.

Steven

 

I've actually made a interesting discovery, I'm sure some of you might already know this, but British Railways built several MK.1 Pullmans carriages. In 1960-61 44 new locomotive-hauled Pullman carriages based on the British Railways Mark 1 design, were built by Metro-Cammell to modernise the East Coast Main Line Pullman services. So while the GCR's carriages are no match for the old classic Pullmans carriages (like on the Venice-Simplon Orient Express train) we know and love, you could say, at the very least, that they do resemble the MK.1 Pullman carriages that British Railways built... And a train like that would support the GCR's aim for recreating a 1950-60's period setting...

Heres a bit of info on the subject:

The PCC was bought by the public body the British Transport Commission (BTC) in 1954. At this point most of the Pullman fleet was somewhat elderly - apart from ten new cars which had entered service in 1951-52 (the building of seven of which had commenced in 1939, and another of which had a reconditioned chassis dating from 1927), the newest cars were 38 vehicles built for Southern Railway 5-BEL and 6-PUL electric multiple units in 1932. The BTC decided to modernise Pullman services as part of the 1954 British Railways Modernisation Plan, with new rolling stock and diesel or electric haulage. The most radical manifestation of this policy was the building of five new diesel multiple unit Blue Pullman trains (36 cars) in 1960, in a special livery of Nanking Blue and cream. Amongst the services which these initially operated were two new trains; the "Midland Pullman" (Manchester Central to London St Pancras), and the "Birmingham Pullman" (Wolverhampton Low Level to London Paddington), which offered business travellers alternatives to West Coast Main Line services at a time when that route was subject to frequent disruption due to electrification work. These were joined in 1960-61 by 44 new locomotive-hauled Pullman carriages based on the British Railways Mark 1 design, which were built by Metro-Cammell to modernise the East Coast Main Line Pullman services.

I believe a few of the original MK.1 Pullman carriages do still exist today.

 

http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=1221

MK1 FO 3092 from the 'Great Central Pullman' rake

 

BR actuall kept making a unique 'Pullman' design right up to 1966. BR created a series of Pullman's with inward opening doors etc using a Mk2 body shell.

See : http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=1102

 

whilst it does look nice and inviting, and will be a big hit im sure, Id sure like to travel on it.

my own personal feeling at the back of my mind is that these MK1 coaches shouldnt have been modified in that unauthentic way, theyre classic heritage vehicles.

they could have done the same with some mk2's as they dont look authentic in anything other than blue and grey (yes Im aware some where maroon) so a pullman livery could well suit them.

leaving the mk1s to be preserved in a realistic internal condition and livery such as blood and custard or maroon.

thats just my personal opinion.
I can imagine some lineside photgraphers for instance avoiding it.


Mike

 

Hi Pete

I do fully understand, same reason why locos and stock are turned out as thomas the tank.


what I mean is why not do it to a mk2 set, theres a lot of them about, corporate parties and familys wouldnt care, and neither would the enthusiasts. money gained could restore mk1s to authentic condition.


what I hear a lot of is railways catering for families and corporate etc,thats where the money is, which is true we know.

but that the enthusiasts are the old men who live on theyre own, or still with there mum and bring there own sandwiches, and they keep themselves to themselves.

what they dont seem to recognise is that a lot of enthusiasts have families and freinds, and will know people who arnt enthusiasts, who may ask the enthusiast wheres the best place to go.
"hi Mike, you like steam trains, where should we go for a day out to take the kids,take my missus for a romantic meal on a train or hold a corporate?"

what do I recommend? the small steam line, surrounded by industrial estates, uses a small tank engine, mix matched grubby stock and stations etc not really period decked out.

or one that has had attention to detail lavished everywhere. beautifully restored period carraiges, beautiful stations and scenery etc etc.


what Im saying is, In the preservation world, it is important to be authentic and cater for the enthusiasts, the families will follow.

if its the other way round, running any old train can put off enthusiasts, who recommend the families, and the families arnt fools.

Imagine somewhere like Crich tramway museum or Beamish with moderner buildings, roads and trams.

Mike

 

How about stopping moaning and giving Railway Vehicle Preservations ( the historic carriages owners baced on the GCR) a few thousand pounds to help create this fantasy of 'beautifully restored period carriages'? It takes lots of time and lots of money to restore vintage carriages, so 'fast refurbishing' a couple of Mk1's commercially is a damn sight easier than persuading wood worm to be evicted from wooden framed carriages.

 

sorry, didnt realise it came across as moaning,

all Im saying is, if fast refurburshing coaches, why not do it to later less historically significant coaches such as mk2s.

to me, period carraiges doesnt mean wooden victorian, but anything from mk1 back.

cheers

Mike