If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Guinness Brewery Locomotives

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by houghtonga, Apr 16, 2009.

  1. houghtonga

    houghtonga Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2007
    Messages:
    385
    Likes Received:
    106
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Chartered Engineer
    Location:
    Derby
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I understand the surving Guiness brewery narrow gauge locomotives are according to this article: -

    http://www.irsociety.co.uk/Archives/22/Guinness.htm

    13 0-4-0T Wm. Spence 1895 To Towyn Museum, Merioneth 1956
    15 0-4-0T Wm. Spence 1895 Withdrawn 1957, preserved (Presented to the Irish Steam Preservation Society; present location not known)
    17 0-4-0T Wm. Spence 1902 Withdrawn 1962, preserved on site (Guinness Museum, Dublin)
    20 0-4-0T Wm. Spence 1905 To Belfast Museum, 1956 (now at Cultra, Ulster Folk and Transport Museum)
    23 0-4-0T Wm. Spence 1921 To Brockham Museum, Surrey 1966 (Amberley Chalk Pits together with a 5 ft 6in transporter wagon and lifting gantry)
    24 0-4-0T Wm. Spence 1921 Retained for preservation (Present location not known)

    Does anyone here know the whereabouts of 15 and 24?
     
  2. ghost

    ghost Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2006
    Messages:
    2,055
    Likes Received:
    1,009
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    N.Ireland
    This is the situation as I know it:

    13 Spence 1895 0-4-0T 1ft 10in Narrow Gauge Railway Museum, Tywyn
    15 Spence 1895 0-4-0T 1ft 10in Stradbally Steam Museum, Laois
    17 Spence 1902 0-4-0T 1ft 10in Guinness Storehouse, Dublin
    20 Spence 1905 0-4-0T 1ft 10in Ulster Folk & Transport Museum, Cultra
    21 Spence 1905 0-4-0T 1ft 10in Cavan and Leitrim Railway, Dromad
    22 Spence 1912 0-4-0T 1ft 10in Cavan and Leitrim Railway, Dromad (boilerless)
    23 Spence 1920 0-4-0T 1ft 10in Amberley Museum, W.Sussex

    25 Hibberd 3068/1947 4wDM 1ft 10in Cavan and Leitrim Railway, Dromad
    31 Hibberd 3446/1950 4wDM 1ft 10in Cavan and Leitrim Railway, Dromad
    32 Hibberd 3444/1950 4wDM 1ft 10in Guinness Storehouse, Dublin
    35 Hibberd 3449/1950 4wDM 2ft Ulster Folk & Transport Museum, Cultra (regauged by UFTM in 1970s)
    36 Hibberd 3447/1950 4wDM 1ft 10in Cavan and Leitrim Railway, Dromad

    ? Hops wagon ? 4w 1ft 10in Guinness Storehouse, Dublin

    2 Open carriage 1882 4w 3ft Stradbally Steam Museum, Laois (regauged by Stradbally, dismantled)
    3 Open carriage 1882 4w 1ft 10in Ulster Folk & Transport Museum, Cultra


    4 Spence 1903 4wHW 1ft 10in Amberley Museum, W.Sussex (converter wagon)
    Lifting gantry for conversion from 1ft 10in to 5ft 3in Amberley Museum, W.Sussex


    3 H.Clarke 1152/1919 0-4-0ST 5ft 3in RPSI, Whitehead (Named Guinness using nameplates from 5ft 3in Guinness diesel No4)


    I am open to correction, but I don't believe No24 was ever preserved.
    There is some confusion over No15 and No22. The boiler from No15 was fitted to No22's frames, the hybrid was numbered as 15.
    The original No15, (now No22) remained boilerless and was in private hands until arriving at the C&L. In theory, No15 and No22 should switch numbers.

    Hope this helps

    Keith
     
  3. 8-10 Brass Cleaner

    8-10 Brass Cleaner Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2006
    Messages:
    234
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Bridges
    On the basis it seems 24 is unaccounted for, then I would hazard a guess that it is the one owned by an irish family called Skelton.

    Where it is I do not know (I suspect it is still in Ireland), there are 3 if not 4 brothers, two live in the USA (one is a hair colourist) dont know about the others.

    I asked one of them if they would sell a while ago, and they said not.
     
  4. ghost

    ghost Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2006
    Messages:
    2,055
    Likes Received:
    1,009
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    N.Ireland
    I think No22 was owned by the Skelton family.


    Keith
     
  5. houghtonga

    houghtonga Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2007
    Messages:
    385
    Likes Received:
    106
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Chartered Engineer
    Location:
    Derby
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Thank you very much for the information, this is excellent.
     
  6. Richieboy

    Richieboy New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2009
    Messages:
    110
    Likes Received:
    1
    Hi Guys,

    Having just spotted the spence loco in the Amberly link included in another thread I thought I would have a search and found this.

    I just wondered if any of the spence loco's had been looked at for re-gauging to nominal 2'?

    I'm guessing that may not be easy though, what with outside frames and all.

    I see one of the 4wDM's has been.

    I would just love to see one of the spence loco's running - so different to anything else about.

    Rich.
     
  7. to regauge oit it would destroy a pretty priceless loco so whats the point
     
  8. Marquis DeCarabas

    Marquis DeCarabas New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2007
    Messages:
    149
    Likes Received:
    6
    Occupation:
    A cad, a thief, a dandy and almost immortal
    Location:
    Neverwhere
    IIRC there are only really minor detail differences between the various batches of engines, so regauging would not destroy a priceless locomotive.

    They are indeed truly fascinating beasties, with sprung valve gear.

    I remember from spending several days working on one of them that the wheels are dished inwards to keep the overall width across the frames down (makes sense when you consider that they would have to fit in the converter wagon to go thrapping around on the broad guage) - regauging is not a matter of retyring, the entire engine would need to be cut in half and extended outwards to maintain the relationships between all parts.

    Not technically impossible, but difficult, expensive and time-consuming: to be honest you'd probably be quicker building a replica - but who would want a replica when there are so many preserved?
     
  9. Autotank

    Autotank Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    Messages:
    526
    Likes Received:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Radio Producer/Presenter
    Location:
    Twyford, Berkshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Don't forget we have 3 Standard Guage Guinness locos at Wallingford.

    The two 08's Lion and Unicorn are currently in regular service on our branch. Lion is undergoing a repaint at the moment and may go travelling next year.

    Carpenter is a small 24 ton 0-4-0 diesel mechanical shunter built by F.C. Hibberd & Co. Ltd in 1949. It was used at the Park Royal Brewery until repalced by Lion and Unicorn in 1986. She is undergoing restoration at the moment and should be in use on P-Way trains over the winter. Walrus her sister is on static display at Quainton.
     
  10. Richieboy

    Richieboy New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2009
    Messages:
    110
    Likes Received:
    1
    Many thanks for a most constructive reply from someone who obviously understands the workings of the machine.

    It was more a case of was it possible, and had it been looked at. Which you have indeed answered.

    I would certainly not advocate destroying a priceless and extremely interesting looking machine, as has been suggested in other replies, I just simply wanted to know if one was ever likely to steam as with many thnings that have been 1' 10 3/4", for example, or similar can easliy be made to run on nominal 2'.

    And they look fantastic.

    It would have been completely different and superb to see on many railways if it was possible.

    Alas not the case - unless anyone wanted to start a slightly narrower gauge railway for one!

    Many thanks for the most excellent reply.

    Rich.
     
  11. W Bareham

    W Bareham New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Retired engineer
    Location:
    Croydon
    Guiness Narrow gauge Brewery locos

    As these were tramway locos the wheel dimensions (small flanges and narrow treads) made them unsuitable for ordinary rail. We found this out at Brockham when extricating No23 from its converter wagon and placing the loco on our track as it immediately fell between the rails. I believe someone in Ireland had the same problem when trying to steam a Guiness loco but I don't have details.
    As the crankshaft is linked to the rear axlebox it follows that it must move up and down with the undulations in the rails and so all crank bearing journals are spherically turned to allow for twist.
     
  12. Eagle1711

    Eagle1711 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2006
    Messages:
    1,693
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Electrician
    Location:
    Bury, Greater Manchester
    found this list on http://www.ngrm.org.uk/Collections/IndustrialRailways/GuinnessBreweryRailway

    Locomotives

    1/ Sharp, Stewart & Co. NO. 2477 of 1875; 0-4-0 saddle tank. Scrapped 1913
    2/ Hops Stephen Lewin & Co. of 1876; 0-4-0 tank; gear drive. Scrapped 1914
    3/ Malt Stephen Lewin & Co. of 1876; 0-4-0 tank; gear drive. Scrapped 1927
    4/ Sharp, Stewart & Co. No. 2764 of 1878; 0-4-0 tank. Scrapped 1925
    5/ Sharp, Stewart & Co. No. 2765 of 1878; 0-4-0 tank. Scrapped 1925
    6/ Avonside & Co. No. 1337 of 1882; 0-4-0 tank. Withdrawn 1936. Scrapped 1947
    7/ William Spence & Co. of 1887; 0-4-0 tank. Scrapped 1948
    8/ William Spence & Co. of 1887; 0-4-0 tank. Scrapped 1948
    9/ William Spence & Co. of 1887; 0-4-0 tank. Scrapped 1949
    10/ William Spence & Co. of 1891; 0-4-0 tank. Scrapped 1949
    11/ William Spence & Co. of 1891; 0-4-0 tank. Scrapped 1949
    12/ William Spence & Co. of 1891; 0-4-0 tank. Scrapped 1954
    13/ William Spence & Co. of 1895; 0-4-0 tank. Survives
    14/ William Spence & Co. of 1895; 0-4-0 tank. Scrapped 1951
    15 William Spence & Co. of 1895; 0-4-0 tank. Withdrawn 1957. Survives
    16/ William Spence & Co. of 1902; 0-4-0 tank. Scrapped 1951
    17/ William Spence & Co. of 1902; 0-4-0 tank. Withdrawn 1962. Survives
    18/ William Spence & Co. of 1902; 0-4-0 tank. Scrapped 1951
    19/ William Spence & Co. of 1902; 0-4-0 tank. Scrapped 1951
    20/ William Spence & Co. of 1905; 0-4-0 tank. Withdrawn 1956. Survives
    21/ William Spence & Co. of 1905; 0-4-0 tank. Withdrawn 1959
    22/ William Spence & Co. of 1912; 0-4-0 tank. Withdrawn 1957
    23/ William Spence & Co. of 1921; 0-4-0 tank. Survives
    24/ William Spence & Co. of 1921; 0-4-0 tank. Survives
    25/ F C Hibberd & Co. No. 3068 of 1947; Diesel.
    26/ F C Hibberd & Co. No. 3255 of 1948; Diesel.
    27/ F C Hibberd & Co. No. 3256 of 1948; Diesel.
    28/ F C Hibberd & Co. No. 3257 of 1948; Diesel. Withdrawn 1961
    29/ F C Hibberd & Co. No. 3258 of 1948; Diesel.
    30/ F C Hibberd & Co. No. 3259 of 1948; Diesel. Withdrawn 1961
    31/ F C Hibberd & Co. No. 3446 of 1950; Diesel.
    32/ F C Hibberd & Co. No. 3444 of 1950; Diesel.
    33/ F C Hibberd & Co. No. 3445 of 1950; Diesel. Withdrawn 1961
    34/ F C Hibberd & Co. No. 3448 of 1950; Diesel.
    35/ F C Hibberd & Co. No. 3449 of 1950; Diesel.
    36/ F C Hibberd & Co. No. 3447 of 1950; Diesel. Delivered 1951 (displayed at Festival of Britain)
     
  13. Ploughman

    Ploughman Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2008
    Messages:
    3,304
    Likes Received:
    990
    Was it just heresay or did the locos actually have to do a one and a half circle as part of the production process?
     
  14. arthur maunsell

    arthur maunsell Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2008
    Messages:
    859
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Co Cork Ireland
    i understand there was a spiral track to reach a different level if thats what you mean
     
  15. Dumphrey

    Dumphrey New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2009
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    2
    Occupation:
    Retired company director
    Location:
    A, A
  16. Bagnall2067

    Bagnall2067 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2013
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    7
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Derby/Sussex
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I would imagine the only real chance of one of the surviving narrow gauge locos steaming is with the help of Amberley's convertor bogie on broad gauge track. At Amberley we have the occasional discussion on regauging no. 23 but the vast amount of work to regauge and steam her (not to mention she's stuffed with asbestos) makes it vastly impractical.
     

Share This Page