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Help needed please : Early steam locos to I.D.

Discussion in 'Pre Grouping (pre 1923),' started by neildimmer, Jun 4, 2019.

  1. neildimmer

    neildimmer Member

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    I have added a collection of photos of mostly 19th or early 20th century locomotives with no i.d. at all



    Can anyone help me with info on any of the photos, most are of a Southern location, eg SE&CR but some I have no idea at all



    Photos 1-15

    https://railway-photography.smugmug.com/SteamMisc/June-2019-NEW-LOCOS-TO-ID/i-C6BdMrK

    Photos 16-30

    https://railway-photography.smugmug.com/SteamMisc/June-2019-NEW-LOCOS-TO-ID/i-BP9wHbD

    Photo 31

    https://railway-photography.smugmug.com/SteamMisc/June-2019-NEW-LOCOS-TO-ID/i-rvN5B4X



    Many thanks in advance



    Neil
     
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  2. sir gilbert claughton

    sir gilbert claughton Member

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    can't see those in that format
     
  3. neildimmer

    neildimmer Member

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    Not sure why, the links work

    Neil
     
  4. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

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    What a charming selection of choice antiques! I suspect our @Jamessquared might be able to shed light on some of those distinctly Kirtley-esque 2-4-0s.

    img368 is easy enough. WC&P No.1 Clevedon Dübs Wks No.1222 of 1879 ... a real favourite of mine. Originally Jersey Rly General Don, until that line was regauged to 3'-6" in 1883, it arrived on the WC&P in 1901 and following a surprise overhaul late in it's life, survived until closure in 1940, before being taken to Swindon for scrapping. Having buffer stocks level with the top of the front buffer beam dates the image earlier than the mid 1920's, when they were re-mounted a bit higher (think Stroudley 'Terrier')
     
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  5. sir gilbert claughton

    sir gilbert claughton Member

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    yep works with Chrome
     
  6. neildimmer

    neildimmer Member

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    Thanks I have used your comments in the caption

    Neil
     
  7. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I had a quick scan, lots of LCDR locos in there, some Kirtley rebuilds of earlier Martley locos. I’ll take a proper look tonight when I can see them properly on my laptop.

    Tom
     
  8. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Part of the furniture

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    Details for Image 31

    BR Combined Volume for 1960 notes :

    John Fowler built in 1936 for LMS Engineering Department (hence ED prefix) powered by a Fowler Type 4C vertical engine rated at 150 bhp @ 1000 rpm with a mechanical 4-speed gearbox .
    Note the date discrepancy with the Wikipedia notes below confirming the need to question some of the details which are input by individuals who may not necessarily be inputting accurate data.

    Referring to GOOGLE :

    1. The Northampton Engineers Department diesel mechanical 0-4-0 No.ED4 with its rods off waits for repair at Derby Works on 27th April 1958. Its first allocation was to Castleton P.W. Depot before moving to Northampton in 1955.

    WIKIPEDIA notes :

    The London Midland Region Engineering Department numbered its diesel locomotives in a series running from ED1 upwards (though ED8 and ED9 were never allocated).

    Number Former No. Builder Details Use Withdrawn Disposal
    ED1 Ex-LMS2 Fowler, 1935 Shunter at Beeston sleeper works 1962 Scrapped (1962)
    ED2 - Fowler, 1949 Shunter 1965 Scrapped (1967)
    ED3 - Fowler, 1949 Shunter 1967 Scrapped (1968)
    ED4 - Fowler, 1949 Shunter 1964 Scrapped (1967)
    ED5 - Fowler, 1949 Shunter 1965 Scrapped (1967)
    ED6 - Fowler, 1949 Shunter 1967 Scrapped (1968)
    ED7 - Fowler, 1940 Shunter (purchased in 1955) 1964 Scrapped (1964)
    ED10 - Ruston & Hornsby, 1958 0-4-0 Shunter at Beeston sleeper works 1965 Preserved on Irc


    As advised earlier I would note that you can obtain further details from :

    1. Locomotives at the Grouping (4 volumes for GWR; SR; LMSR; LNER)

    2. BR Steam Locomotives from Nationalization to Modernisation (4 volumes for GWR; SR; LMSR; ER)

    Both sets were published by Ian Allan in the 1960s hence will need to be bought from a second hand bookseller. Given your increasing collection it may be worthwhile buying a set of both titles if available but note that GOOGLE requests will also provide many of the answers if the questions are formulated with the correct details.

    I will use both sources over he next couple of days to try and identify these latest images but would recommend the two titles noted above as a start point for future researches.
     
  9. 6024KEI

    6024KEI Member

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    already covered above - that's what happens when work intervenes!
     
  10. bluetrain

    bluetrain New Member

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    LCDR Heaven! I think that Mr Jamessquared will have identified most of these while the rest of us are still scratching our heads, but perhaps I can offer my two pennyworth.

    Photo No 7 - Now that is a real curio! A "Single Fairlie" with allegedly Britain's first use of Walschaerts valve gear. Built by Avonside of Bristol, exhibited at an exhibition in Paris and sold in 1881 to the gullible directors of the Swindon, Marlborough & Andover Rly as their No 4. Unfortunately, the loco foreman received no instructions on how to care for this strange contraption, and complained that "No 4 is little or no use to us for train work, as she can never be depended on and is the most expensive engine we have". It was scrapped in 1892.

    Photo No 10 - Looks like a Park North London Rly engine, one of a class of 74 built from 1886 and becoming extinct in 1929. No 88 became LNWR 2868 and then LMS 6506.

    Photo No 18 - This photo appears in OS Nock's book on the SECR and is captioned "LCDR Continental Boat Express near Bickley, hauled by 2-4-0 locomotive No 54 of the Europa class". The train appears to consist mostly of 6-wheelers, but there is at least one bogie coach, which leads me to think that the photo dates from the mid 1890s, when the LCDR first began to build bogie coaches in quantity.

    Photo No 22 - Looks like one of the GNSR 4-4-0s that became LNER Class D40 - one of them is sitting today in Glasgow Transport Museum. But the loco number is too high for the GNSR, so may be one of those that was sold to the SECR.

    Photo No 25 - Looks like another of the Park North London Rly engines.

    Photo No 27 - Lancashire & Yorkshire Rly Barton Wright 0-4-4T No 18. Built by Sharp Stewart in 1885 and withdrawn in 1910.

    Photo No 28 - The location is Cowlairs Incline on the North British Rly exit from Glasgow Queen St, prior to the abandonment of rope assisted haulage in 1908. Both engines are of Matthew Holmes design , with the leading loco being one of a small number built with 7-foot coupled wheels. The 7-foot engines were later rebuilt with Reid boilers and cabs (substantially changing their appearance) and became LNER Class D25. No 598 was built at Cowlairs in 1888, rebuilt in 1911 and withdrawn by the LNER in 1930. The second engine in the photo appears to have smaller wheels, so is likely one of Holmes' much more common 6ft 6in engines. I'm not sure which class, but likely to be among those that were later rebuilt by Reid and became LNER Class D31.

    More information on NBR & GNSR 4-4-0s can be found here:

    https://www.lner.info/locos/D/d_b.php
     
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  11. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    OK, her's my thoughts about some of them.

    1
    The number appears to be 4xx; that and the general appearance makes me think it is a "Dawn" class Martley 2-4-0, rebuilt by Kirtley (to be Kirtley class N) and as running near the end of its life. They (and the very similar "Bluebell" class) were built in 1862-63 by Sharp Stewart; rebuilt / reboilered by Kirtley at various time between 1876 and 1891, and withdrawn between 1903 and 1907. I think it might be No. 491, which was the exemplar loco "Dawn", built October 1862, reboilered November 1886, withdrawn July 1907 after 1,252,434 miles. (NB - just noticed it is labelled on the page as a Tiger class No. 481, but I'm not totally convinced; I think it is 491. The driving wheels look too big to be a Tiger class).

    2
    Martley "Enigma" class "Mermaid", later Kirley class L, SE&CR No. 510. Built at Longhedge June 1870, reboilered June 1882, withdrawn July 1906 after 1,033,848 miles.

    3
    One of the incredibly long-lived "Sondes" class 2-4-0Ts; originally built as a 4-4-0ST Crampton type loco by R&W Hawthorn and Co.; rebuilt very quickly by Martley; rebuilt again by Kirtley. The original locos dated from 1857-1858 and lasted until 1909.

    4
    Martley "Europa" class "America", later Kirtley class C, SE&CR No. 515. Built Sharp, Stewart and Co. October 1873, rebuilt November 1892, Withdrawn December 1907 after 1,008,177 miles

    5
    Martley "Reindeer" class "Templar", later Kirtley class L, SE&CR No. 506. Built Messrs. Peto, Brassey and Betts, October 1873, rebuilt November 1892, Withdrawn December 1907 after 1,008,177 miles

    6
    There were two very similar, and long-lived, Martley 0-6-0 goods engine classes, the "Acis " class (with 5'0" wheels) and the "Adrian" class (with 5'3"). I think this is one of the Acis class, which had a more pronounced sweep of the frames to clear the outside crankpins. They were built by Sharp Stewart and Co and Robert Stephenson and Co between 1861-1862; reboilered / rebuilt between 1881 and 1888; and withdrawn between 1903 and 1908, generally with just under a million miles run.

    11
    Martley "Large Scotchman" "Mona", later Kirtley class D 0-4-2WT, SE&CR No. 558. Built Neilson & Co. March 1873, reboilered November 1902, withdrawn July 1910 after 857,593 miles.

    12
    A really interesting one. "Aeolus" class "Bacchus", later Kirtley class S. This was built by Robert Stephenson and Co in 1859 as 4-4-0Ts for the Smyrna & Aidin Railway in Turkey, but the last of the batch left on the quayside in Britain when the deal fell through; they were acquired by the fledgling LCDR in 1860. Renewed (i.e. extensively rebuilt!) as 2-4-0T by Kirtley in 1872; that is the form pictured. Reboilered February 1888; withdrawn April 1906: another surprisingly long lived early loco. Final mileage was 905,117.

    13
    Another, earlier, view of Europa class "America". Photo must be somewhere between about 1876-78 (when the class gained cabs) and 1892 (when the loco was reboilered).

    14
    Another Martley "Large Scotchman"; this is SE&CR No. 559, "Scotia". The photo must be between formation of the SE&CR in 1899 but before 1902-3; during that brief period the loco ran with both a number and a name. Loco was built March 1873 by Neilson & Co.; reboilered March 1903; withdrawn December 1913 after 963,103 miles.

    15
    One of the Martley "Scotchman" class 0-4-2WT, "Bute". Built April 1866 by Neilson & Co; reboilered May 1888; withdrawn December 1904. The photo was taken at Battersea, 1875.

    I'll look at the second set in a bit; realised getting this far has taken longer than I thought!

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2019
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  12. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    16
    Another of the "Sondes" class rebuilds (referred to in the minutes as "Second Sondes" class which seems a fair reflection on the balance between whether they were truly a rebuild or a new loco); built R&W Hawthorn February 1858; rebuilt by Martley September 1865; reboilered August 1877 and January 1906; withdrawn September 1909. The photo is probably 1890s.

    17
    The same as No. 16, quite possibly taken the same day. The fire irons and spare disc don't look to have been touched between the two photos!

    18
    Another Martley "Europa" class, this time No. 54, formerly "Asia". Built September 1873, reboilered August 1892, withdrawn February 1909 after 1,060,035 miles. The photo will be somewhere between 1892 and about 1900.

    19
    Another "Acis" class goods, originally "Thisbe", later LCDR No. 126, SE&CR 585 then 585A. Built December 1862 by Robert Stephenson & Co.; reboilered March 1881; withdrawn March 1906. Photo dates from LCDR days.

    20
    Martley "Bluebell" class, later Kirtley class P; originally "Snowdrop" then LC&DR No. 40; SE&CR No. 501. Built May 1863; reboilered November 1884; withdrawn May 1908 after 1,194,362 miles. Photo shows the loco in post 1884 condition; There is at least one other photo in existence of the loco taken at the same time / location.

    21
    Martley "Tiger" class "Pegasus", later LCDR No. 22 and SE&CR No. 481. Built March 1862 R&W Hawthorn & Co., withdrawn December 1904 after 1,030,969 miles. The photo is of the loco near the end of its life, in SE&CR condition.

    22
    One of the GNoSR design 4-4-0s, later SE&CR class G. The number looks like 680 - built Neilson Reid & Co. To traffic February 1900, withdrawn September 1927.

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2019
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  13. neildimmer

    neildimmer Member

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    Hi Tom thanks for the detailed info which I have placed into the captions
    Photo No.1 I have darkened and enlarged the photo and it is 491
    Neil
     
  14. neildimmer

    neildimmer Member

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    Thanks again Tom, once again your comments added to captions

    Neil
     
  15. Robin

    Robin Member

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    Photo no 9 (Stewarts & Lloyds No 87) is metre gauge Peckett 2029/1942, now preserved at the Irchester Narrow Gauge Railway Museum.
     
  16. bluetrain

    bluetrain New Member

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    One more ID for you. Photo 26 also appears in the book "Lancashire & Yorkshire Locomotives" by Barry C Lane.

    It is one of a class of 18 0-6-2T engines introduced by William Barton Wright in 1879. They were rebuilds of 0-6-0 tender engines built by previous LYR loco superintendent William Jenkins (149 built between 1855 & 1870). They were the first British examples of 0-6-2 tanks with rear radial axle (Webb type - 2 years before Webb himself used it on the LNWR). The engine number is difficult to read in the photo, but may be 372.

    Barton Wright was sufficiently pleased with these rebuilds that he went on to build new 0-6-2 tanks, some of which lasted to LMS days. The rebuilds themselves had been scrapped before grouping.

    The carriages are 4-wheel types built by F Atock (LYR carriage superintendent) in 1876/7.
     
  17. neildimmer

    neildimmer Member

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    Thanks Robin

    Neil
     
  18. bluetrain

    bluetrain New Member

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    I agree that the "Locomotives at the Grouping" booklets are most valuable, but this particular set of photos mostly shows classes that had disappeared before Grouping. Life can be much more difficult in such circumstances. The RCTS and other sources provide very comprehensive accounts of locomotive history back to early days for the GWR and Southern Railway constituents, but coverage becomes much more patchy once you move away from GWR and SR territory. Railway companies, particularly in earlier days, did not always advertise their identity in large lettering on the sides of tenders and tanks. So sometimes it can be a struggle to associate a photo with a particular company or loco engineer. Of course, if you can see enough clues in the photo to identify "likely suspects", you have the key-words to find the right book or start a web search.

    Meanwhile, I think we've resolved all the photos in this collection except the 4-4-0 in the shed at Photo 29. That is LCDR Class M1 No 175, built at Longhedge Works in 1880. It became SECR No 634 and was withdrawn in 1914.

    I think that some of the LCDR types might be on my fantasy list of replica projects. The LCDR 0-4-2 well-tanks (Photos 14 & 15) were based on GNR designs and it is tempting to think that one replica could masquerade as both GNR & LCDR versions. Problem is that the dome appeared, disappeared and migrated along the boiler top as different loco engineers became involved.
     
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