Help needed please

Hi Tom

You are a mine of information
The dates are what were given with the photos so obviously there may be a difference in dates, anyway, added 1911-1914 in the caption

Neil

 

Pic no. 49; the loco in the foreground is a GER "209" class 0-4-oST, LNER cl Y5, could be 7209 or 7231 (if the date is correct). These engines were known as "coffeepots"and were latterly used as works shunters at Stratford with the result that, at least until the end of steam, all works shunters at Stratford were known as "pots". The heavily stripped loco behind appears to be CV&HR 0-4-2T no.1, which was scrapped at Stratford in 1923. I base that identification partly, of course, on the original caption but also on the outside-frame. One thing that puzzles me is that the outside frames extended to the front of the loco and they appear not to in this photo- or had they already been "chopped"? Incidentally, both engines were Neilson products.

 

More careful study of the picture, which seems to have been particularly affected by the prevailing atmosphere at Stratford, and of various dusty tomes, leads me to think that the rear loco is not CV&HR at all, but an ex GER F3 2-4-2T. Reasons? It seems to have a GER numberplate on the bunker and it is just possible to discern, through the fog, the front axlebox in it's outside frame. As to the 0-4-0ST, there were 8 of these built, the first 4 between 1874/8 by Neilson and a further 4 between 1897/1903 at Stratford, numbers were (GE) 209/10,226-231. Of these, 2 (or possibly 4, depending on which authority you believe) survived the grouping and 2, nos. 228 and 230, were service locos at Stratford. However, both of these were fitted with Westinghouse brake and had a prominent air cylinder , as well as a tool box, behind the chimney, which was also fitted with a spark arrester. The loco in the photo has none if these features, so it may not one of the dedicated works shunters. Unless, of course, both engines were awaiting their fate on the scrap line! One "209" survives. 229 was sold in 1918 and now resides with Bill Parker in the Forest of Dean.

 

http://railway-photography.smugmug.com/SteamMisc/New-Steam-locos-locations-to/i-Ktk5k2Q = Johnson 3F 0-6-0
http://railway-photography.smugmug.com/SteamMisc/New-Steam-locos-locations-to/i-9bDVk4Z = Billington B4 4-4-0
http://railway-photography.smugmug.com/SteamMisc/New-Steam-locos-locations-to/i-D577w54 = HR Clan Class 4-6-0 [4762 Clan Campbell ?]
http://railway-photography.smugmug.com/SteamMisc/New-Steam-locos-locations-to/i-2p7B7zz = Deeley 0-4-0T (41528 - 37 series)
http://railway-photography.smugmug.com/SteamMisc/New-Steam-locos-locations-to/i-SjDKcBR = Class Q6 - Q7 has inclined cylinders
http://railway-photography.smugmug.com/SteamMisc/New-Steam-locos-locations-to/i-M5QVGRf = 57xx 0-6-0PT
http://railway-photography.smugmug.com/SteamMisc/New-Steam-locos-locations-to/i-kg8bVmT = 45xx 2-6-2T [4575 class if sloping tanks ?]
http://railway-photography.smugmug.com/SteamMisc/New-Steam-locos-locations-to/i-jkhQZKJ = 28xx 2-8-0
http://railway-photography.smugmug.com/SteamMisc/New-Steam-locos-locations-to/i-5hkD9hZ = 57xx class 0-6-0PT
http://railway-photography.smugmug.com/SteamMisc/New-Steam-locos-locations-to/i-j2jBWSB = 57xx class 0-6-0PT
http://railway-photography.smugmug.com/SteamMisc/New-Steam-locos-locations-to/i-GDKMvZm = LMS 0-6-0 (4027 - 4606 series) built 1924 onwards in store
http://railway-photography.smugmug.com/SteamMisc/New-Steam-locos-locations-to/i-Dks942p = Stanier Class 5 4-6-0 (44677 ?? with self-weighing tender)
http://railway-photography.smugmug.com/SteamMisc/New-Steam-locos-locations-to/i-3dWmjQs = 56xx Class 0-6-2T
http://railway-photography.smugmug.com/SteamMisc/New-Steam-locos-locations-to/i-rsbs2hB = 72xx class 2-8-2T
http://railway-photography.smugmug.com/SteamMisc/New-Steam-locos-locations-to/i-PKhhG6F = LNER D15 Class 4-4-0
http://railway-photography.smugmug.com/SteamMisc/New-Steam-locos-locations-to/i-hkPtQqD = LNER F3 2-4-2T [GER = 76; LNER = 8076]
http://railway-photography.smugmug.com/SteamMisc/New-Steam-locos-locations-to/i-jttrqzg = Class E4 2-4-0 [GER 1258 then GER 415 from 1920 then LNER 7415]
http://railway-photography.smugmug.com/SteamMisc/New-Steam-locos-locations-to/i-5Mw98Mk = LNER J6 Class 0-6-0 594 [GNR = 594; LNER 3594; BR = 64243]
http://railway-photography.smugmug.com/SteamMisc/New-Steam-locos-locations-to/i-7J7qgkr = LNER J15 Class 0-6-0 [ GER = 640; LNER = 7640; BR = 65440]
http://railway-photography.smugmug.com/SteamMisc/New-Steam-locos-locations-to/i-zr8NTBc = GNR / LNER Class G1 0-4-4T [GNR = 766; LNER 3766]
http://railway-photography.smugmug.com/SteamMisc/New-Steam-locos-locations-to/i-3NrrtbQ = LNER J19 0-6-0 [ GER = 1240; LNER = 8140; BR = 64650]
http://railway-photography.smugmug.com/SteamMisc/New-Steam-locos-locations-to/i-FKq4W9X = Fowler 4F 0-6-0 3885
http://railway-photography.smugmug.com/SteamMisc/New-Steam-locos-locations-to/i-cMpkMXg = LNER Class D31 in Scotland [ uncertain location]
http://railway-photography.smugmug.com/SteamMisc/New-Steam-locos-locations-to/i-ddNNs5z = LNER Y5 0-4-0ST [ not sure if from Colne Valley as Y5 is defined as a GER design]

 

I think that the Colne Valley description is a red herring. The Y5 is definitely ex GER, I don't think they ever worked on the CV&HR. The loco behind looked vaguely like CV&H no.1 and the scrapping date and location seemed to support this, but on closer examination don't think it is ( see my previous post). Perhaps the photographer thought/was told that he was looking at a CV&HR loco- looking at the state of it, there wasn't much to go on!

 

I'm certain picture 16 is a Manor & not a Grange.

http://railway-photography.smugmug.com/SteamMisc/New-Steam-locos-locations-to/i-XSw7TTw

Looks like either 7823 or 7828.

 

Couple of minor corrections;

ex GER no.76 is an LNER F5, built 1909. It is most easily distinguished from an F3 by the lack of outside axleboxes on the leading and trailing axles.

GER no. 1240, built in 1912, is pictured in original condition and is therefore a J18. The class were rebuilt as J19/2 in 1935/36.

 

A quick check of "Locomotives at the Grouping : No 2 London North Eastern Railway" by H.C. Casserley & S. W. Johnston advises that GER locos added 7000 to fleet numbers thus GER 76 became 7076; page 114 of the same book identifies 7076 as Class F4 and the loco becoming 7184 in the 1946 renumbering then 67184 in BR listings. It is curious to note, however, that the GER list in this book shows GER76 / LNER 7076 as Class F4 as at 01/01/1923 but the text at page 39 suggests it is Class F5 by being rebuilt with a higher pressure boiler[F4 = 160 Lb; F5 = 180 Lb] in the period 1911 - 1920. Can one square this circle ?

My identification of this as F3 comes from the mistaken addition of 8000 to the GER number and not 7000; GER 76 = LNER 7076 = F4 whilst GER 1076 = LNER 8076 = F3 which was scrapped before the receipt of a 1946 LNER fleet number; my apologies for the confusion.

Agree about 1240 being class J18 at time of photo - apologies for the typo (dodgy digits in my old age)

 

The F4/F5s are a complicated subject, the differences between the two classes when built were very small and later alterations by the LNER made them virtually indistinguishable. I got my info from "Locomotives of the Great Eastern Railway 1862-1962" by C. Langley Aldrich. Mr. Aldrich covers both classes together in his book, indicating that there is very little difference between them.

 

Thanks for all your replies, hopefully the id's are up to date now

Neil

 

Thanks again Fred
I have taken note in other e-mails the 2 locos that were disputed

Neil