Is this the end of the Peak Rail dream?

You've got a very good point there! In response to Kestreleyes I think what disappoints about Peak Rail is that 20 years ago Llangollen, West Somerset, ELR, Gloucester and Warwickshire, Peak Rail and probably a couple of other lines were all at a similar state of development - they have all developed enormously but Peak Rail has not.

I cannot help but feel that if the late Brian Oliver (Leander/Galatea) who did so much to get the line to Rowsley had not passed on, his drive would have meant a very different Peak Rail today. That's not to criticise anyone at the railway, Peak Rail has some unique problems, but sometimes the right leadership can work wonders.

Lordy

 

i think you are correct!

if we look back there were indeed a lot of lines that were at that stage of becoming big and we were one, we missed a few opportunities over the years and other things passed us by

a few examples,

we started off with a fantastic loco fleet of ex mainline diesels, when things stagnated a bit most left for other upcoming lines save the core fleet,however in their place a fantastic fleet of shunters appeared,plus a few good mainline locos some in restorstion long term others in use, so weve done alright in the end even though we went round the houses.

we started with a small steam centre at buxton, when we could have started at matlock, in the event i was one of the supporters of keeping a steam centre there as i frequented it every day on the way to the school bus from school at the back of the station,but i was only 16 at the time and no car,so couldnt help much, when we finally moved to darley there was so much forward impetus that we rapidly shot off towards rowsley, but it did start to slow down by the time we reached there, for obvious reasons;

1.wed made such a sudden rush we needed to consolidate our operations.
2.we wanted to develop rowsley,and what a good job we did, but its taken time,money and hard graft.

any extension beyond was always fraught with problems, the land towards bakewell being owned by the duke,the missing bridge,haddon tunnel etc,etc,etc as anyone around when we layed the track to matlock will tell you the short mile and a half of flat track there has numerous rebuilt bridges,cut unders for farmers and culverts, all of which had to be rebuilt and ate into the money available to extend, not to mention the constant battle of trying to get into matlock town station proper!

hindsight is a wonderfull thing, im led to believe the midland railway centre lads had looked at rowsley as an option in the very early days before they set up at ripley, but the thought of the bypass over the peak district at the time in the late 60s early 70s was a serious threat to this option and so they went elsewhere,
the only thing we could possibly have said is that if wed as an early peak railway society got the money available to save the bit to rowsley before the track was ripped up in the 70s and the midland lads had set up camp at rowsley then can you imagine it!!

likewise the dinting lads did look at rowsley in the early 90s as an option as it was basically a walk in and get on with it site, this option together with the northwich shed option which the council were going to assist funding made their decision harder, they eventually chose their third option which was the base at the KWVR, once again what if?!?!

im glad to a massive degree we have groups such as the heritage shunters trust,mr wade,the class 50 group,the 8f lads,mr briddon and all the other people who make it interesting and different, for those that dont know the platform at darley has its new midland fence up and the tarmacing is due to start soon funded by the charity, add this to the shed nearing completion and at least two of the wish lists items you mentioned in earlier threads seem to be getting done.

i also note that several lads have started to get locos back under the rowsley shed and working upon these, a sight ive not seen since 1988 when as a lad i saw this small cautaulds loco being jacked across inside the shed road at buxton steam centre.

heres the best to the next twenty years ,to you too out there in the heritage world, may all your plans make good headways ne`r worry about the future as in the end the railway is only an inanimate object plans and all,its you that makes it live,breath and get somewhere!!!!

kestreleyes!

 

someone mentioned would this route be of any use to the high speed two plans.

while im not high up in the NR heirachy so i wouldnt know in any way there are a few things which would make me think no!

1. high speed routes avoid trouble areas, putting an electrified route through the heart of the 2nd largest national park in the world is a big no no and media nightmare!, even more so if it goes through several tourist hotspots which it would obliterate, a site or two of rare orchids,one site of special scientific ineterst and very close to a major national trust landmark,then gets stuck in tunnels and cuttings all of which will need to be rebuilt or opened out as major works in the national park..remember ruskin he didnt like the valley after the railway changed it!.


the woodhead however doesnt!!!!

2. flat and straight are the prefered methods for high speed routes for many obvious reasons, the peak line is neither of these,the peak line was notoriously packed to capacity and slow,reasons being obvious, it doesnt matter what you do with the line, if its running at capacity and it isnt a flat piece of track then things will backlog.

best plans for the peak line had the occasional freight, a local and one cross country service per hour,not much good for hs2 that!!!

the woodhead route however isnt!!!!

3. everyone forgets when you talk about line reopenings that its not the bit thats missing track that mounts up the costs but also the bit either side too, the missing 16 miles between rowsley and buxton junction are the easy bit, what do you do with the single line bit to ambergate, and then theres all the resignalling and retracking to derby to cope with the extra services,headways,linespeeds,and capacity you ram into the section there,then where do you go from derby?

jump to buxton, youve constant problems with dove holes tunnel, so do you enhance the twenty miles to stockport via whaley bridge or do you spend shed loads more on going through the tunnel to chinley,then what, you still have capacity problems to hazel grove or round the back to woodley to sneak in via the back route to manchester via guide bridge.

makes the gothard base tunnel at around 40km long seem like the simple solution to it all!!

the woodhead however has several things going for it, wider european gauge, it meets the soon to be upgraded route into manchester via guide bridge with new signalling and boxes,it has the shortest overall amount of route building to connect to two main cities and was previously electrified,les structures on route,flatter and leveller, on the edge of the national park so its not such an issue of spoiling the view as new catenary is far less obtrusive than the old gc type was.and it connects the northern midland area directly at sheffield for the northern ports and cities, where youd expect the new hs2 route to appear.

looking at some early media hs2 presentations and its connecting lines on the system at work there does seem to be a line roughly where youd want woodhead to be!,especially now the bit from picc to liverpools getting electrified, engineers arent daft, they know a good deal when they cost it up!!!! they also know a flogged horse that would have cost loads if the peak line had survived into the modern world, similar costs to the settle and carlisle line would be the only option for the peak route with worn out tunnels,etc if it had survived and possibly the capacity issues would have meant that something like track circuit block or adding intermediate block signals would have been done eventually if the line had survived, lets hope those who pay at the top have the same common sense!! and reuse the midland mainline with new sections and 4 tracks where they can for the new hs2,similar to those undertook at trent valley!!!! tried n tested

 

Thanks for the comprehensive answer, that was really good. I had completely forgotten about woodhead although I am not sure that they will consider that route as the leaks in the papers this week from the guy who is doing the study showed a route a good bit south of the Peaks going to Sheffield from Birmingham.

 

yes indeed, its a toss up between build a new hs2 line like the french but at massive cost due to our geography of housing (theres only so much houses you can compulsary purchase before it becomes a media outcry and the costs start to spiral above your desired limits)- but the outcome is you end up with a perfect line for your needs,

or reuse what youve got like trent valley, id summise the best option for a hs2 line to the north would be to reuse the wcml as far as you can,its once you get into the cities and suburbs that the problems really occur like in manchester, shame as the midland main line would geographically be fantastic for the central major cities of birmingham,sheffield, ladd a normal type mainline branch over the woodhead to manchester and liverpool (rejoining at "north midlands junction" i think they call it!) and run up from sheffield via york to edinburgh.

long live hope!!!!!

 

Don't Kill us off Yet !!!

So basically most people seem to think we should curl up and Die ?
P R might not be the biggest and best, but SHOULD be so much more ! And it seems a crying shame that the publicity (especially on this forum) that 48624 generated was not put to better use in elevating P R to better things. An old adage was that you need to speculate to accumulate, and I think P R missed a Gift Horse in the 8F.
But in Some defence of P R, if people could put as much time/effort into supporting them as they do into sla**ing them off then maybe they would be in the big time ????

Let's hope this isn't the end of Peak Rails dream.............

 

To make superheaters point,here is 49 pages worth of comments about 48624!
http://railways.national-preservation.com/showthread.php?t=16699&highlight=48624&page=49
Now,if only all the people who had something to say about it came and supported the railway and locomotive...

 

Ooohh Martin !!!!!

 

My warped mind was thinking the same thing Frank.

Regards
Chris

 

"quote"

"That's a perfectly reasonable comment and most members on here do try and support many preserved railways , but there are many lines and centres and engines all vying for limited amounts of time and money . As i pointed out close by you we have the EVR as well as the MRT not forgetting Crich . Both Trainmad and Pcgenius are active on here updating us on their respective schemes"


indeed there are many, and all seem to get by for many different reasons,Crich has the trams, the EVR is starting out in the world and keeps hacking away at it bit by bit, Barrow hill is a rly centre in and near major conurbations of chesterfield and sheffield, the MRC is a day out in its own right and also captures derby trade, and PR captures the trade of tourists coming up the peak district and theres nowt else till you get to manchester 30 miles further on, so theres local potential too.

yep marketing could and should be better,ive seen ads in my local paper for the ELR and MRC yet nowt for PR which is nearer...

maybe one thing we volunteers there could do better is to blog a bit more about whats goin on as it is a free forum, il make the start and will try to continue monthly.il ask the moderators of our website if they can blog the official events on here too..

from my own dept; S&T fettling up a gate wheel and drive gear for church lane, finished off the token project church lane to rowsley,just awaiting inspection,includes the sprung trap ground frame which the idea came from our colleagues over at the EVR from their wirksworth station ground frame, awaiting wood for rear of luffenham box so i can finish it off ready to start painting over crimbo,plus maintenance etc etc,yep there are other works too which i now have in planning but il let board make them anouncements when the time comes.....

platform at darley now just wants tarmacing, which i believe the charity has sourced and will be done before new year from what i hear, tim and andy are constantly working on the waggon fleet, which is something you dont see at many railways..there are talks about having or trying to get an LMS or similar period train on one of the gala dates.

HST shed is well on,all sides on,some steelwork being done for the doors and the guttering being finished.

LMSCA lads can be seen there most days and evenings working away at the coaches including the NRM coach.......

anyone else from PR want to add whats happening!!! as the man says the internet is free lets put ourselves out there!!!!!

 

So basically most people seem to think we should curl up and Die ?

I don't think anyone is suggesting that, it's simply a matter of adjusting the dream to match the reality of what Peak Rail has become and playing to the strengths of that reality. One obvious asset is that the LMSCA lads have built up a superb collection of LMS coaches, so it would be good for the railway to support them in getting some into traffic, giving a marketable asset that only the SVR can match in this repect.

 

good volunteers never curl up and die,we just put up a stiff upper lip and crack on!!!its what we rest our brews on when were standing out the rain!!

the lmsca lads are doing a fantastic job, id use the words thorough as well, on both their own fleet and the NRM stock, as are andy,tim and ben on the waggon fleet,im not aware if any of the fleet are currently operational or available for running on passenger duties but it would be very nice to see them in passenger running.

maybe someone from the LMSCA could answer the question on the forum.

tell ya what il ask them and their future plans and post the answer on here if they agree,unless they blog on here first!!!

 

Hello, I'm a volunteer with the LMSCA. Thanks for the kind words about our efforts. It's all about doin' a 'proper job' just like they used t' do in olden days

We're working on a number of fronts at the moment, the main one being the NRM's Period 1, TO, 7828, which we started putting the panelling on today on one side. Its been a long haul with framework repairs taking quite a bit of time.

If folks are interested our website is www.lmsca.org.uk. The following link takes you to the 7828 page:
http://www.lmsca.org.uk/projects/7828.php

You can also see a couple of videos of us doing our thing. The first one is recanvasing the roof of 7828:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoXIUig4B6M
The second one is of us learning how to do steam bending of a couple of bits of wood from Harv:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dg7mWlRHJw

We do have quite a collection and range of LMS carriages with a representative from the three periods of LMS carriage design, including a Period 2 TK, 1501, one of only ten built! We would dearly like to see all of the carriages in our care running, but as with all things in railway preservation its time, money, and most importantly - volunteers, to make it all possible.

I hope that has given a bit of insight of what we get up to.

Kind regards,

T'Bogger

 

your all absolutely welcome, not a problem, indeed there are many wonderful opportunities for all of us in the derbyshire,notts and staffs areas with us all being so close to work together, some of us are members at other local lines so we all get on well with each other.

from hence forth i will try at least once a week to update you all out there on the goings on upon the railway, something tim one of our waggon fleet stalwarts does regularly on our own peak rail news website.

maybe tim will update on here too if he gets chance, or some of the other lads n lasses, i or someone else will put it under a new heading on the forum starting tommorow evening, wel see how it goes...

ive passed the question on tom our public and media relations boss who will probably put out some official statements which we may end up posting on here with permission obviously, but in most cases the volunteers blog about galas etcetera before the main reports go out anyway.

keep annoying us for more info if i start slacking gents!!!!

 

Thank you gents for using my previous post to BIG things up and promote good things that are happening, If only Peak Rail could publicise themselves PROUDLY as we feel they should, adverts are in all my local papers for MRC's events but never Anything for PR surely the cost of 1 small advert is a chance worth taking in the game of catch the punters ?
And yes the 8 should be the ace in the pack, to me the 8 and the austerity could be out on mixed traffic weekends at least once a month ! Let's see bigger and better things!!!!!!

 

I agree. PR does need a bit more,...well,...PR really. When I mention to people that I volunteer on a preserve railway in Derbyshire, they first say is it the 'wirksworth line' or they say the 'one at Ripley'! One chaps said 'Ooo is it that small narrow gauage line on the A6'. Err well wort of, it does have a narrow gauge, but it's actually standard gauge....and so the story goes on. Hey ho. Mind you we do have a PR director now, and there has been a foo articles in the magazines now, like railways illustrated. But we've got a bit of catching up to do.

 

I was going to put some photos up to illustrate LMSCA progress on the NRM's Third Open but I keep getting 'file upload failed'

Dave