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Isle of Man Railway Number 7 Tynwald Removed from the Island

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by Allan Thomson, Sep 29, 2012.

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  1. Allan Thomson

    Allan Thomson New Member

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    On Friday the 28th September 2012, the frames of the Isle of Man Railway Locomotive No7 Tynwald were removed from the railway station of Castletown by their owner's the Isle of Man Railways and Tramways Preservation Society, and are bound for the UK. It is suggested that they will eventually find a new home at Southwold, as to whether this will lead to the locomotives reconstruction remains to be seen. It is also suggested that a significant Cleminson coach No N42 formerly of the Manx Northern Railway (the only one publically viewable on the Island, previously located at the railway museum and now sited in the workshops) is also to be moved in due course despite being in a somewhat fragile state. It is a sad day for the Island's railway history as it is the first locomotive to permanently leave the Island since the early 1980's, with little likeliehood of it's return in the foreseeable future.

    Images of the locomotive in the process of removal can be found here:-

    Frames Of No. 7 Removed From Railway
     
  2. Anthony Coulls

    Anthony Coulls Well-Known Member

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    Oh Allan, please don't start the tirade against the mainland again. Can we just be grateful it survives and has a future?
     
  3. Allan Thomson

    Allan Thomson New Member

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    I have corrected your post.

    Tynwald had survived on Island since 1880. As for the Cleminson, well that is unlikely to survive the move to the UK being in such a fragile state. Is it really better that it's moving from a system where it has relevance and long history to one which is still attempting to establish itself and has some local opposition? That's nothing against the Southwold railway and its supporters (I wish them the best of luck with their plan), but it reflects badly on the society (which in its name claims to preserve and protect the tramway and railway items of the Isle of Man) and which happens to have custody of a highly significant coach (which was originally saved by another on Island society as opposed to the UK based society).

    To begin with I was simply publicising the fact that the frames and coach were being removed from the Island without attempting to express too strongly my own opinion on the course of action.

    Incidentally as I see you represent the National Railway Museum in the UK and from your posting you appear to consider the Isle of Man to be within your remit, then when will the NRM invest in providing an on island based outlier museum where Manx transport items can be safely and securely displayed closest to the place where they have most relevance?
     
  4. Anthony Coulls

    Anthony Coulls Well-Known Member

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    Forgive my poor terminology and I apologise for any offence you may have taken.

    I know you feel very strongly about Manx heritage, and I respect that, but do you not think that folks who might not have the chance to visit your wonderful country should have the ability to see and enjoy one or two representative items?

    Oh yes, if you really want, I'll send you 35029 by exchange. ;-)
     
  5. Allan Thomson

    Allan Thomson New Member

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    Actually no I'd disagree, I think that given that the items were preserved for so long by a Manx Company (which could have elected to shut in the 1930's but managed to eke out its existance through a combination of creative accounting diverting profits from the bus network and the post war tourism boom, until the mid 70's when the government saved most of it - we'll ignore Bill Jackson and the Pender debacle for the minute) and the amount of money invested by people on Island in the railway that the only place you should be able to see IOM Rly stock is on Island. Surely the Manx people should be entitled to recompense for their investment?

    At the end of the day if the NRM truly considers the IOM within its remit then it should be investing in it (rather than just leave the IOM govt and a few independant local people to get on with setting up a local transport museums), and staying true to its principles with outliers (correct me if I'm wrong but is it not now NRM policy that artefacts be displayed closest to the area where they have the most relevance -hence the concentration of Broad Gauge stuff in the South and the Sans Pariel being at Shildon?) - therefore the NRM should be supporting the retention of items on Island (with the occasional rotational temporary loan item coming to the UK in exchange for another significant loan item coming to the Island) or is the aquisition of IMR related items for the UK's NRM a one way process? - in which case give Mr Hendry a shout and ask him about Tynwald's frames (sure the IMR can help you find the rest of the bits for a price) or ask Manchester to donate Pender to the national collection....

    Re Ellerman lines, thankyou, but I don't think you've cut it down quiet enough yet to fit our loading gauge. The leaking steam might be a problem on the gradients too... ;)
     
  6. Anthony Coulls

    Anthony Coulls Well-Known Member

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  7. Allan Thomson

    Allan Thomson New Member

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    That's fair enough, but then surely as a railway historian/archaeologist you should still be concerned about the potential move of a rare and fragile coach out of the area where it has the most context to an area where at current there is no site actually established and it is unclear as to whether there will be the facilities to adequately preserve it?....
     
  8. DJH

    DJH Member

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    Allan.

    Not wishing to stir old discussions but MoSI is now part of the NMSI group and has been since January so through this Pender is technically part of the national collection now.

    As a volunteer you do occasionally get questions on the locomotives in the collection and I'm more than happy to mention where they spent their working life. My only regret is I've not yet been in a position to head across the Irish sea to see the railway out there. One day I hope, time and finance permitting.

    Duncan
     
  9. marshall5

    marshall5 Well-Known Member

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    Alan, I think you've made your point.There is no point in going over old ground and causing ill feeling between us (on the IOM) and our colleagues on the adjacent island. By and large the NRM,MOSI etc. do a good job in preserving our (British) railway heritage - compare it to some of our European neighbours where it is next to non existant. You obviously feel very strongly about the loss of No7's frames and the Cleminson but please don't allow the actions of the IOMR&TPS to cloud your judgment. Regards Ray
     
  10. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Guest

    If there is a chance a rebuild from the bits could happen, then how is that a bad thing ?

    As for the hermetically sealed ones.. what benefit is that to the railway, the economy, the country or the public ?
     
  11. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

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    The parochialism of railway enthusiasts really annoys me. All too many enthusiasts here on the "mainland" are just as bad. If it's British, they will clamour for it to come back here, regardless of how many identical examples are already preserved within our shores. If it's not built here, they take no interest, and many of the foreign SG engines which have been imported to Britain have since returned to their countries of origin. I appreciate that the British loading gauge is a handicap in terms of operation (NVR accepted), but am I really the only one who thinks it's a good idea to have some foreign stock available to see in Britain for comparison with our native types, and for a few examples of British engineering excellence to fly our flag overseas?
    As far as the IoM goes, thirteen of the fifteen surviving IMR steam locos will still be based on the island. Tynwald isn't even a complete engine. If islanders want to see the frames of "small Peacock" they could ask to see No. 1...
    Finally the coach. You claim it is too fragile to move. Have you actually carried out any investigations to formally determine this, or is it more a case of you having taken a quick look at it and thought, "hmm, she's looking a bit delicate?"
     
  12. guard_jamie

    guard_jamie Part of the furniture

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    Well said muztrem. Is the CVR, ELR and KWVR demanding the return of the SVR's LMS engines? Is the VoR demanding the return of the brake van at the WHHR? Should 45379 get out of Hampshire where it doesn't belong? Should Repton et al be off the Moors? Just because the IoM is an island does not mean that its railway heritage should all be there. Should the Narrow Gauge museum at Tywyn return the signal and other ephemera?
     
  13. Allan Thomson

    Allan Thomson New Member

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    Muz Trem, the condition of the coach is based on information from the Shed staff. Given that they're working with coaches daily and have the expertise and knowledge necessary to make the assessment I'd respect their judgement.

    Guard_Jamie, you comments show you maybe don't entirely understand what makes the Isle of Man Railway distinct from all these other systems for two distinct reasons.


    Firstly in the main your examples are based in terms of UK based railways and talking about stock which is based upon the same landmass which it belongs to. The Island however is a politically separate entity from the UK, sharing the same soveriegn. Therefore it would be more appropriate to ask whether you feel that the rolling stock of a none European country belongs more rightly in a state of preservation in that country or in a lesser state of preservation in the UK? At the moment the place to which the stock is going isn't quite established and is still opposed. At least at the moment the carriage is under cover in the workshops. What facilities are there to protect it when it arrives at Southwold and what is its use or relevance to being there given that it is in a bad state and has no real connections with that system (except for being the same gauge which is immaterial as it's not a runner).

    Secondly what makes the IMR different from the vast majority of UK based 'preserved' railways is the fact that it is still the heir to the original company, running one of its complete lines, carrying passenges (particularily tourist traffic) which it was designed to do, using the same rolling stock which was bought by the original company. Something which (and I am sure you will start to bring up one of the few UK examples where this is the case, simply proving you have missed the real point) most preserved railways cannot claim to do. Start to take away historically significant stock and leave it with a hotch potch of other rolling stock and you simply reduce it to the status of most other preserved railways albeit one which is increasingly more expensive to access due to the ferry and airlines companies pushing their prices up.

    Finally another difference between the examples you have given is that occasionally the stock is allowed to return to the system it belongs from time to time and remains in the land mass to which it belongs. Whereas the items removed from the Island rarely return (Pender will never return, DHMDT No1 wasn't permitted to return for the centenary even though it was originally saved by an on island individual, Tynwald and the Cleminson will be unlikely to either, Polar Bear and the Groudle coaches on the rare occasion do (generally just for centenaries), but not very often and Amberley has made it plain that they would not part with it or consider a long term loan), and often disappear (the two MNR Hurst Nelson Bogie coaches the first in the British Isles with Electric Lights, the two Cleminsons and the pairs Coach in the Phyllis Rampton collection haven't been seen since they left the Island). so it seems that having suceeded in saving a disproportionate amount of its heritage due to the investment of the local people and the foresight of the local companies it is now being asset stripped for UK based individuals to build their own 'trainsets' and collections....
     
  14. Allan Thomson

    Allan Thomson New Member

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    The 'hermetically sealed ones' are awaiting removal of the asbestos which will be funded by the IOM taxpayer, following this they will be restored to either running or display conditions. What's the issue with them remaining heretically sealed for health and safety reasons until such a point as funds and resources are available to pay for the safe removal of hazardous substances from them. These 'hermetically sealed' items were just recently aquired from the same UK based individual removing the frames of No7 and the Cleminson coach, who had done nothing with any of these items in terms or restoring or exhibiting them on Island for the period of 30+ years they had them.....
     
  15. marshall5

    marshall5 Well-Known Member

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    This topic has already been discussed ad-nauseum on the IOMSRSA forum and all it now seems to be doing is stirring up ill feeling - just like last time!
    ADB968008- No7 is just a set of damaged frames and cylinders which were left outside to rot for 40+ years - thats all there is. With respect the chances of its ever being restored are just about zero.
    Alan - The only person who can change this is the owner(s). You were given Hendry's contact details 3 days ago. Have you tried to contact him - do you intend to? If he is willing to be flexible contact me via a PM on the IOMSRSA site as I may be able to help. Ray
     
  16. timmydunn

    timmydunn Member

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    I'm not quite sure what bearing the governance of an island should have on the location of this locomotive, and the constant anti-UK sentiment expressed via postings passim is getting tiresome.

    Rather than some folorn lumps of metal lying uncared for, for 40+ years, I'm pleased that finally someone has taken the initiative and moved it somewhere that it'll have a chance of survival and indeed reconstruction (all being well). This loco will likely outlast us all, and will probably move again to more than one location. It may even move back to the IoM in future generations. But we will be dead.

    Thank god that there are some people who regard preservation as an international, borderless pleasure for us all. The transfer of this loco's parts back to the mainland of the British Isles (of which the Isle of Man is but one) is but another chapter in the loco's history. I hope they paint it in Southwold Railway livery. Or maybe, pink. It is up to the owner of the locomotive what happens to it next. Indeed there is nothing to stop them from installing a diesel engine in the boiler and tanks and creating a very efficient development of this particular class of loco.

    What is clear here is that there are fundamentally opposed views and there is absolutely no chance of an agreement on any level whatsoever. We are all just observers to what is a private matter for the owner of said lumps of metal, and words fired across these forums about it are ineffective.

    Rather than working ourselves into a rant about a futile matter on which there is no chance of effect, perhaps it is time to put the effort into something more positive. This battle has been lost, Mr Thompson. The items in question have departed. It is time to move on.
     
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  17. Allan Thomson

    Allan Thomson New Member

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    I have (for the second time in a number of months) contacted Mr Hendry via the email address given for him to try to find out if he is willing to part with the Cleminson. I had previously contacted him some months ago about what would be happening with the various items and to attempt to find out if it was possible to offer an off railway storage site for at least some of the items (with the intention of trying to form a neutral trust to store or even purchase the items - due to the issues between both groups). As previously found by other individuals (and as I believe was found by the supporters association when enquiring as to the possibility of purchasing the items or at least protecting them) he has made no effort to reply. My mother (quite seperately) contacted him to enquire as to something else entirely unconnected to the railways and he made no effort to reply to that either. To say that he is somewhat uncommunicative is to say the least.

    I am working on an assignment due in at 10:00hrs tommorow so forgive me for not having written to him. As soon as the more pressing assignment is out of the way I intend to send a letter to himself again asking about the coach. As you know my own desire is at some point to see a museum established in the north of the Island about the MNR and I would hope that if the cleminson could be rescued it could become a significant exhibit.
     
  18. Allan Thomson

    Allan Thomson New Member

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    Mr Timmydunn, there is no anti uk sentiment expressed in the forum here what so ever. What there expressed is Anti 'Little Englanders' who seem to fail to percieve that the adjacent island is not percieved as the mainland, and who fail to percieve that the people of the Island have invested in their system, and think they have the right to remove things which rightfully belong in the place they've been for well ove 100 years.. What you also fail to realise is that the battle is not lost as whilst the frames of No7 have been removed from the Island, the significant Cleminson coach has not. And what you further fail to grasp is that in moving to the UK (which despite being corrected you still persist in referring to the UK as the 'mainland') that the frames and the coach likely as not are not any more secure (having been safely accomodated on Island for many years, the coach being undercover in a museum and then in the workshops), instead moving to an enterprise which is locally opposed and which it is unclear as to whether there is any form of storage for the item. So there we have it - a non running coach which has a lot of significance on the Island (as part of the last vestiges of a railway company which was liquidated in 1907), but which has no significance to Southwold. The future is not bright at all. I will look forward to the Day I can ride behind No7 Tynwald in an MNR Cleminson coach even if it is Southwold, but somehow I doubt it....... No doubt a scrap metal merchant in the area will be greatful when the owner approached him to dispose of a set of collision damaged locomotive frames, and I presume that the metal bits of the coach might end up on the auction circuit if not going to the same dealer and the people of Soutwold will have some firewood from 1879 once the coach has fallen to bits....
     
  19. Bramblewick

    Bramblewick Member

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    Whatever your 'perception', Great Britain is the mainland. It is the largest of the British Isles. That's what the word 'Great' means in this context. The UK on the other hand is the British Isles less Man, Eire, and those offshore Irish islands which are governed from Dublin.
     
  20. Allan Thomson

    Allan Thomson New Member

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    Continue to percieve yourself as the mainland if you wish. That does not give you any right or claim on any railway items within the Isle of Man. As I've said before if you consider this to be within your sphere of interest or influence then invest in it by supporting the railways rather than turning a blind eye to "Asset Stripping" from them. I presume you do not object to 'mainland' Europeans referring to Britain as a small Island off "Mainland Europe"?....
     
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