Isle of Man Railway Number 7 Tynwald Removed from the Island

The only part of this debate that I, and seemingly others viewing this objectively from the outside have failed to grasp, is this constructed concept of "rightfully belong[ing]" in a specific location.

I'm not quite sure why I find myself labouring over a technicality here, but the Isle of Man is one of many islands that comprise the British Isles. Great Britain is the largest of the Isles, and it is the mainland of the British Isles.

I wish you well in your lobbying campaign. We all find happiness in different things.

 

OK, guys. Let's keep this discussion friendly and avoid the personal comments. Anyway, we're all part of Europe, aren't we?!

Richard

 

Actually no the Isle of Man isn't actually, hence why we don't get the massive subsidies from Europe (ie the Welsh Highland) or National Lottery Donations (despite the National Lottery Selling Tickets in the IOM) to support our railways which some british based groups seem to benefit from. Therefore we rely on donations from our own government and private individuals to keep our railway systems operating - therefore it is our property and items from it should remain on island.

 

We went over all this before. What are you trying to achieve with your anti-British vitriol?

 

Of course I don't, because unlike you I don't allow petty nationalism to get in the way of simple geographic fact. For myself I would prefer that the Isle of Man's railway heritage was kept intact, but then it isn't my government which closed half the system and rendered much of the stock redundant, it isn't my government which is trying to wreck the Douglas Horse Tramway, and it isn't my government which has allowed this sale to take place. The Southwold revivalists have obtained appropriate 3' gauge stock which nobody seemed to care about or want, and good luck to them. It isn't their fault that it was available, and it isn't the UK's fault that the Manx railway system has been asset stripped. Your objections to geography don't change any of those facts.

 

I'm not Anti British at all, you misinterpret me pointing out that objects which have a long history on Island have no relevance on the adjacent Island (especially in Suffolk) and so therefore should not be removed there, especially if they are going to be worse preserved over there than they are here at current) which is not anti British in any way - by the same token I would think it was innapropriate to transport a Mainline Standard Gauge British Locomotive or Carriage over here just because the owner had fallen out with the management of their local railway.....

 

You don't put your point over very persuasively though!

 

Consider this - the owner of the items was made an offer by an on Island based group for the two items yet made no effort to respond to them. So on the contrary to no-one caring about or wanting the rolling stock there was many attempts on Island to try and purchase them and preserve them - but yet the owner would not even enter into negotiation about them refusing to acknowledge any communication on the matter.

As regards the Isle of Man government it saved a railway system which was fighting to stay alive in the late sixties and made significant investment in it afterwards (most recently in the major relays during the Iris project). As regards the Closures they were closures which had already taken place several years before the IMR was finally liquidated and the goverment took over the running of the railway (rather than continue to pay a subsidy to the company to allow it to operate the Port Erin Line).

As regards the Horse Tramway the Government wishes to relocate a system out of a busy roadway and onto the reservation on the promenade where it can continue to operate parralel to its current course - hardly wrecking it....

The Southwold revivalists have not obtained suitable 3' gauge stock - they've obtained a pair of collision damaged frames and a fragile cleminson which is (and barring a total reconstruction to such an extent as to make it virtually a newbuild anyway) a non runner and therefore only fit for exhibition (and therefore should have been kept on Island and exhibited in the place where it has the most context). As the are struggling to establish either a steam park or a new stretch of the line it begs the question what secure storage is there at Southwold or will what is already a fragile artefact simply be left outside to rot?

That's nothing against the guys at Southwold and I wish them luck, but it seems more to me like the current owner has thrown his toys out of the pram with the IOM and therefore shipped what items he can manage to the UK and just happened to pick the only 3' Gauge system he could find to send them to....

 

I don't think that equation is mathematically true, nor logically true, nor legally true. Things are owned by the people that legally own them. That you do not receive National Lottery donations does to change that. That the Isle of Man railway system receives government help does not change the ownership, nor does the fact that private individuals donate. Your argument seems to be entirely emotional. Who is the "us" that thinks it owns (as far as I can work out) the Isle of Man railway [...therefore it is our property...] and demands that everything ever connected with it remain? Are there more of you or is it a royal "us"?

Your views seem very communistic to me.

 

I understand this point-of-view and have a degree of sympathy for it. Heritage is best interpreted and displayed in the area that it is associated with. A Scottish engine is context-less in southern England, as is an IoM engine in north-west England. But it's all down to how we present our arguments; your post that I've quoted is well thought out and in a measured tone. Don't expect much sympathy when you make emotionally-charged statements about the difference between the IoM and the UK.

 

Mr Skanes The Isle of Man Government owns the railways, ergo the taxpayer does, ergo as I pay tax and am entitled to political representation at Tynwald I could be counted as having a right to have a say about what happens to items from the railway system. Do you pay Tax or have a right to Political representation on Island? If not you illustrate my point entirely. If not you may have your opinion but that opinion will hold slightly less sway than mine will as I can make my opinions known through my political representative....

 

That's fair enough, I think we're starting to see things from each others points of view.

 

IOM chose not to join EU and so does not qualify for the finance that has assisted some preservation schemes and obviously does not contribute to the European budget either.
The Manx Lottery Trust distributes National Lottery grants to good causes on the IOM in the same way as in the UK as a delegated partner of the Big Lottery Fund, the grant criteria and application decisions belong to the IOM trustees not the UK.

 

I don't see much issue with Tynwald leaving the Island frankly, it's basically just a set of frames and in it's current position, it's prospects were bleak at best and nil at worst, not like a loco that could be seen running again has been permenantly removed (remember Tynwald could always return in future).

The Railway already has a number of Loco's that rarely even see the light of day, let alone restoration (5 Mona & 9 Douglas to name two, asbestos might be an issue, but can be overcome with the will and money), personally i'd like to see 16 Mannin let out the play, being a unique big Beyer Peacock gives it a selling point.

While on the subject, does anyone know of any recent photo's of 14 Thornhill ?, I know it's in private ownership, but is it so private that no one's got a phot since the 70's ?.

 

Part of me feels that anything which is written on this thread is going to upset someone, but what I don't see and hopefully Allan Thomson can answer this for me, why was it when the County Donegal Group asked about the two ex CDRJC Railcar's no’s 19 and 20 (which have not turned a wheel for x amount of years on the IOMR and considering just how much money will be required to restore them both to working order) the opportunity to send them back to where they belong in some peoples view was missed? Also this day and age just how many steam locomotives can the IOMR justify in having in working order? It costs just the same to restore something to museum condition as it does to working condition?

Allen you have stated you would like to see a Museum in the north of the Island, this has to be a laudable endeavour but just how much will it cost to set up and run?

Losing a loco to another site is not the end of the world, the Lynton and Barnstaple have two coaches which are doing the railway far more good as mobile advertisements for the North Devon Project one being on the Ffestiniog Railway (which just so happen to have three or four IOMR carriage chassis in use under new stock) and the other in the NRM. Of course all true L&BR short axle fan wants them back in Devon, but if you look at our coach in the NRM it really is to far gone to be rebuilt back to running condition so why worry???? we don't as we know that in time two brand new coaches 1 and 2 will run on the L&BR but we don't know when that will happen.

As for our 14 or the FR 15 once again it is doing our project a lot more good that we could afford in such a location such as North Wales, so I say to you, put your heart and soul for everyone benefit in keeping what you have left on the Island in working order, it could have been a lot worst, I have heard about the fire at St Johns but that would be opening up another can of worms as it is. You guys did lose a lot of your stock in that fire which is sad, but if all that is left of Tynwald is a pair of very rusty frames what have you lost? Some one once said to me what we build years ago can be rebuilt again and that is very true look at the new build A1 Tornado for a start.

I could list a whole list of thing which have happen in the name of preservation, which would not be allowed now, ask yourself just how much is still genuine on a lot of the heritage steam locos or rolling stock that are preserved to day? What I am saying to you is be realistic in your aims and you never know what may come of it.

As a starter for ten Google the amount of three gauge locos which are looking for a museum home around the World could the IOMR become such a location???


Regards

Colin Rainsbury

 

there are pictures in existance, message me nicely and I may be able to help....

What's your take on the Cleminson?

 

The issue with the CDR's was a considerable amount of money was invested in restoring them to functional order, before the previous Director of the Railways decided he was going to pull the funding. The CDR's are still on the agenda and local groups have considered restoring them - the issue is that there needs to be some sort of turntable at both ends to avoid them being knackered up by being dragged around.

I would presume due to the large amount of money invested in the CDR's plus the fact that they have a far longer history on Island than they did in Ireland, plus the failures of a number of attempts to restart preserved railways in Ireland was the reason that they are retained here. Certainly I'd like to see them restored and in a useful role on Island, and wouldn't object to a short term on hire loan to an Irish railway to recoup the cost (on the understanding they were to return here within a set time period). Indeed I feel that perhaps a number of the other BP 2-4-0T's should be restored to running order, and wouldn't object to their short term hire to other 3' gauge railways - as long as they were contractually and legally bound to be returned to the Island within a finite timescale.

It's not so much when things leave temporarily that I have the issue with - it's when they leave and don't come back - and that seems to have been the case with pretty much every IOM railway connected artifact that's left the Island (Pender, DHMDT No1, the Rampton items (2 x Cleminsons, 2 x Hurst Nelsons and the pairs), the Steam Crane from Laxey that went to the IMR and now probably that list will include No7 and the Island's only publically viewable Cleminson. The only item that has left and come back temporarily (and that was exceptional due to several centenaries) is the Polar Bear, the Groudle Glen Coaches and possibly you could argue Sea Lion is an exception given that it's undertaken reciprocal visits to Amberley. So it's not looking good at all.... it seems that a number of places in the UK have aquired stuff from the IOM and there's not much that has come here in return - certainly not permanently. I was aware of the FR coaches but was ignoring them as I feel that is exceptional circumstances.

To add insult to injury the removed items rarely benefit the Island either in financial or publicity terms either....

And incidentally no, it does not cost anywhere near as much to restore an item to museum condition as it does to working condition. At least in terms of locomotives. The Peveril cosmetic restoration cost nowhere near as much as it would do to get it back in running order. Short of the Paint, brushes, Cleaning tools and brasso it didn't cost much at all....

Also you post touches on another matter - what is genuine?... well in terms of steam locomotive stock and carraige stock the IOMRLy is unusual in terms of being 100% genuine and (allowing for a few repairs and rebuilds to the same pattern on the same underframes) original - it actually is the stock that the original company bought (we won't include the Diesels with the exception of the CDR's in this). Until Friday it could say that out of its steam fleet of 16 locomotives (not including the two MNR locos) that only one had been scrapped (No2 Derby) and only one removed from the Island (No3 Pender - at the behest of an MHK's cousin), and one other (MNR3/IMR14 Thornhill) on the Island but as someone's highlighted not generally publically viewable - but which as it's still on Island may re-emerge back into public view or ownership one day. Very different from the hotchpoth of mainly frieght loco's from assorted origins, most not dating much further back that the Big Four that you find on your average preserved railway in the UK.

 

In the real world I doubt my opinion holds any sway at all. Yours probably holds twice as much.

If you regard off-islanders' opinions on the subject to be worth less than yours, I wonder why you started this thread in the first place?

And whilst the IoM government may own the railway, and correct me if I'm wrong, they don't own Number 7, so .... the owner can do with it what he likes. And you can write to your political representative all you like but I doubt that anyone would be interested in putting up public money to buy the remains of a loco of a type of which you, or rather they, have rather more than they will ever need.

 

Off the top of my head, ANNIE, ANT, BEE, DOLPHIN, WALRUS, POLAR BEAR (the electric), VIKING, AILSA, 2 x Simplex, 2 x Walker Brothers, and aren't the bogies the Snaefell vehicles run on imports?

 

Annie - built on Island. Ant and Bee - commisioned for Laxey Mines railway. Dolphin and Walrus - fair enough. Polar Bear - Commisioned for the railway at Groudle, Viking fair enough but are Shcoema Diesels that rare or prized? Ailsa - surplus to requirements - are they that prized as well? Is there a Channel Tunnel enthusiasts groups somewhere cursing the IMR? Simplex's - again are they that rare and prized? CDR's - spent more time on IOM than they did in Ireland, they would have probably been cut up or hen houses when the system closed. Snaefell bogies - commisioned for the system but again were the trams they were built from that rare or prized at the time either?...