Isle of Wight Steam Railway Carriage and Wagon updates

Tom, must you hijack every thread with something about the Bluebell?

From where I am sitting , one would think there is only one preserved Railway , and that is in Sussex.

I suggest that you transfer this to say "Bluebell matters" and get a life at the same time.

Regards
Chris:

 

Healthry rivalry benefits the movement - and the wagons too!

 

Healthy rivalry I have no problem with, but too much long windedness? well I will leave this to others to work out.

Kind regards
Chris:

 

<sigh>

I bow to no-one in my admiration of the IoWSR, which is why I am a member, albeit an overseas one But as Paul's question was a general one not specific to the IoW, I felt it was worth answering. And this would hardly be the first thread to suffer a bit of thread drift: witness recent discussions about the NYMR on-train dining facilities and SVR motive power in the Bluebell threads. All grist to the mill, and a bit of variety helps give a different perspective. Your mileage may vary...

Tom

 

This point was made:

and answered - what's wrong with that?

It is indeed a shame that most "heritage" lines now seem to be stuck firmly in the 1950s and that their demo freight trains are all from this era, even though at tat time there were a lot of older wagons in use. Unfitted wagons of any sort are rare (how many unfitted brake vans do we see?) and box vans predominate over the ubiquitous 5/7 plank or 16T steel mineral wagons. It's all largely down to whatever survived the longest in departmental/MOD or dock service, but it's a shame that a more representative selection of wagons can't be restored.

 

Quotes from upthread:
a) Rapid progress is being made on the re-build of LBSCR 10 Ton Van 3713 and preparations are underway for the next wagon project, LBSCR 10 Ton Open 27766 - the C&W team are making superb progress on rebuilding our wooden framed wagons, is any other railway doing as well?
and
b)I can't think of any other standard gauge line which has any useable wooden framed wagonry but someone will doubtless correct me if untrue! The IOWSR puts many larger operations to shame on the C&W front.

I am a bit behind with my reading, as I've been busy with NSR127, so I've only just got to this thread ....
....I must say that I agree the IoWSR are doing very well with their C&W restorations, very impressive....

...however to answer the second quote, The Bowes Railway has several wooden u/framed waggons (I know as I helped to rebuild two of them, the underframes are cut out of green oak) and Beamish Museum has a rake of Chauldrons (sp?) with wooden u/frames. Off the top of my head I think that the Tanfield Railway has some others, both Bowes and the Tanfield have "a few" awaiting attention.
StoneRoad​

 

That *might* be down to the slight matters of a) funding and b) waggons are just not "sexy" enough nor do they create revenue per se ....... if you have funds to donate I'm sure I could fit a few into the workshop programme......

 

The November Carriage and Wagon update is now online at http://www.iwsteamrailway.co.uk/news/carriage-and-wagon-news-november-2013-25.aspx

 

Gary - looking at your Flickr site, what's happening to the 1860 crane? Is the match truck coming in for some TLC?

Thanks

Tom

 

Both are in line for TLC, the match truck is now at the side of the workshop for careful measurement, followed by dismantling. The LBSCR 10t van is not far off completion so that will release space and labour. The new Oak for the match trucks frame has been in stock for a couple of years. The wagon its self is supposed to be LSWR but all of its steelwork is pure LBSCR, it is a strange one . Its dimensions do not match any of our existing wagons hence the careful measuring.
The 1860 Midland railway crane will be attended to in a few years time when we have a sufficient budget, it will be restored to working order but only for demonstration purposes.
In the meantime we would like to make a few more vehicles available for the timetabled goods trains, budgets permitting.

 

Thanks Gary. Interesting that the identity of the match wagon, or rather the provenance, is uncertain! It's entirely a guess, but it seems at least plausible to me that an old wagon that has spent a long time in departmental, rather than revenue, service (such as the match truck) may have received various service alterations in its life (for example, getting LSWR-pattern axle guards or buffers) that could mean that anyone taking a superficial glance might instantly say "LSWR" and only a more forensic view would identify the origins as being more Brightonian… I've seen photos in SR days of LBSCR locos with LSWR chimneys and SECR smokebox doors, so presumably much the same thing could have happened to wagons - but with fewer distinguishing features, such changes would go much further to disguising the original identity of the wagon.

Still, it is one of the glories of the Island's railway system! I wonder where else in the country a vehicle from 1860 could have survived long enough in traffic to have been able to be preserved in comparatively recent times?

(Incidentally - the crane and the match truck are covered in Vol 2 of "An illustrated History of Southern Wagons", but apart from a brief synopsis of how they came to be bought by the IWCR, some basic dimensions and a photograph, there is next to no detail: in particular, the crane is identified as MR in origin but the match truck is not ascribed to any company).

Tom

 

I think that it is possible that the MR crane has had a number of match trucks, very difficult to ascertain when this particular wagon became the match truck. We are not even sure if it is a purpose built match truck or simply a wagon that fitted the bill.

The popular belief is that the structure of the wagon is still perhaps LSWR but that over the years the Island workshops have used LBSCR spares on the wagon in an effort to standardise the wagon fleet. This is pure conjecture though.

 

Thanks for that. So possibly (probably?) an LSWR wagon that over time has accreted LBSCR parts, rather than an LBSCR wagon that has accreted LSWR parts...

Tom

 

Prompted by these discussions I have been comparing Gary's photograph of 429SM/DS3139 http://www.flickr.com/photos/gwalkeriow/11964362135/ with one of the crane 429S and match 429SM from 1928, credited to the Ian Allan Library, in the 1978 edition of the IWSR guidebook. I'm not going to copy that in as I am uncertain about copyright.

The match truck in the 1928 photograph has grease axleboxes, different W irons & springs, no hand brakes and a 1 1/2 plank superstructure and different bolt patterns in the main frames.

Certainly the match truck that is about to be restored came with the crane when it was acquired from British Railways in 1967 by Vectrail and passed to the IWSR in 1971. They have remained matched since then - there has been no swap in the preservation era. As far as I know

I would speculate that the current match truck was constructed at Ryde to the overall dimensions of the LSWR(MR?)/IWCR original and, as Gary says, standard Brighton parts. Ryde was fully capable of completely retimbering a wagon, as is now done at Havenstreet, so this must be a possibility. The work could well have been an "accountant's rebuild". I'm sure that Gary's colleagues have access to more photographs and maybe they will help resolve the point.

Incidentally, both crane and match received a lot of use in the 70s and early 80s when the first sidings were laid at Havenstreet and the loop was built at Wootton as well as in moving various loco and carriage parts. There was quite a knack in using it with its low and high gears, alternative jib positions and friction band brake.

 

Interesting! Looking again at the photo in "An illustrated history of SR wagons" (Vol 2, page 89), on the same criteria, it looks the same as Gary's photo: for example, it has a handbrake, is one plank, has the same bolt pattern and, as far as is clear, the same shape axle guards. Unfortunately, the photo isn't dated, though presumably SR days (the crane is lettered SR). I don't recognise the location, but clearly it is not Havenstreet, i.e. I'd assume it is an "original" photo, not a preservation-era one.

Incidentally, Gary might be happy to know that the wagon coupled to the match truck looks like a Brighton box van!

Tom

 

I think that we have a copy of that book at Havenstreet, I will search it out tomorrow and do a comparison.

 

Worth remembering that the crane came via the Isle of Wight Central and has, so I believe, links with Col. Stephens.

 

I would say that is the same wagon that we have here at Havenstreet, I have been sent an earlier photo taken in the 1920s showing an entirely different much earlier match truck. It is possible that it is the original MR match truck.

Paul Hitch is indeed correct the crane was purchased by the IWCR in May 1912

 

Is any information on this crane detailed in Railway Breakdown Cranes by Peter Tatlow?
I realise it is a hand powered crane and the capacity will be "Not a Lot"
But that book does show the development of cranes from small beginnings.

There are some similarities of that crane with one illustrated in Vol 1 Fig 1 p10.
However that is for a GER 12ton hand crane of 1885.

 

Dating from 1860, this must be one of the oldest cranes in preservation. Does anyone know of an earlier one?