Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by Freshwater, Nov 12, 2013.
.... or ex-NLR 4-4-0t. OK, perhaps that's just me then!
Well one could argue the Ribble Steam Railway has enough locomotives in their care as it is.
The Isle of Wight Steam Railway's goal at the end of the day is to acquire items that are most appropriate to what ran on the island before, and seeing as Haydock is virtually identical to an identical to an engine that originally was on the island, I'd say makes it more than appropriate for them.
Same reasoning why the E1 has gone to the island, never worked there but other members of it's class did so is still most appropriate to be there.
That's why railwaymen use numbers, not names
Also in the latest Steam Railway was a very good article about the Oldbury carriages. I just had to smile at this bit towards the end: "This is a railway that generally does things for two reasons: because they're a part of the island's history - and because they're 'nice to do'."
W.I.B.N. is a condition which affects journalists and politicians as well as gricers. The IOWSR is an Arts Council Accredited Museum and as such, properly recorded restoration and conservation are part of its function.
Is it by Jove! Golly, I don't think you've mentioned that before!
But isnt that the same body that called an unmade bed art, i call it lazyness or just being a minging person.
Wait so are you saying that because the IOWSR is a member of this club so to speak, they affectively get a pass from you in being able to do WIBN projects?
Not that I'm complaining of course, though seems odd that just because the railway holds a certain title they are seemingly given more leeway.
Well I must admit, I love the vintage coaches, they have an air about them, especially when hauled by something just as old, and we should be thankful that they were not just turned to firewood, but were given new leases of life after their railway life, which meant they were available when the time came to look for suitable 4 wheelers to increase the coach numbers at the IOWSR, As pre grouping stock was just not available anywhere.
One could equally argue that IoWSR (like many other heritage railways) has "enough" locomotives.
"Seeing as Haydock is virtually identical......" Are industrial locos not entitled to a history of their own? It seems that it is O.K. for an industrial loco to masquerade as a B.R. loco i.e. something that it never was - but not the other way round. Think of all the Austerities pretending to be J94's. Imagine the row if someone suggested painting a Terrier as an NCB loco.
I've nothing against the IoWSR, they have done wonders and recreated one of the most convincing heritage railways but the RSR also has a specialism in preserving the history of industrial railways ... and is also an accredited museum.
How long would the jouney time be traveling from Shanklin to Ventnor, with a stop at Wroxhall, compared to the time it would take a bus to travel the same route, As regards a rail/ bus interchange at Ventnor, that does have merit, if it in turn provides a link from the town, to and from the station, and further afield to alum bay etc. as well as local services but it would need the bus operator to work with the railway company to everyone's advantage the same way I feel Esplanade could be redeveloped to bring buss, Rail and Hover craft under one roof, with refreshment/ bars above the platform/ walkway, bus station so anyone needing to wait for either form of transport can do so, under cover , and in comfort.
They may or may not be for all I know. Accreditation deals with record keeping, recording work carried out to various items. It imposes certain standards, in exchange for which. gifts or loans are facilitated. Discussions have been held with a Senior Curator at the V&A about display techniques as well.
Personally, I am less enamoured by this proposal than by the E1 which is a potential runner.
Sarcasm? Surely not!
Fair points made, and I mean no disrespect to the RSR either, their preservation of industrial steam heritage is something to be admired.
That said this question of RSR being a better home seems null void however, as it is the IOWSR not RSR that has come forward with intent to acquire and care for Haydock.
Even if you do not agree with the reasonings behind their interest for it, I'm sure we can both agree on wanting the best for the engine's future, no? And can be doubt Haydock would be well cared for on the Isle of Wight.
One would hope that if the IOWSR acquired the loco, then regardless of whether it is steamed or not, it would retain it's own identity and not be renamed/repainted as a 'fake' IOW loco. I would hope that the same would be true for the E1. As Ray mentions above, these locos have their own history which should not be erased.
Couldn't Haydock be a potential (if unlikely) runner? She'd need a lot of work, especially if recreating Freshwater, but so will the E1.
This is a good photo, shows her in WC&P days but looks largely unchanged: https://www.wcpr.org.uk/Portishead 0-6-0T.html
There's also a photograph of Haydock in earlier condition: https://ingeniumcanada.org/archives/details/MAT-07592
Personally I think fake is a blunt term to use, seeing as the locos would be effectively following in the footsteps (or rails) of other members of their respective types, so I'd still appropriate in my books. Arguably if any engines were to be considered fakes it would be the Ivatt Tank pair and the Austerities.
Also I'd very much doubt the IOWSR would erase their history either, more like adding to it. Also I've no doubt they'll be sure to have the engines previous working lives presented for the public to view somewhere.
And in the case of the E1 I'd go further to argue few seem to care enough for its own history to see it be restored and prosper, whereas with the IOWSR they did.
Same with Haydock, whrn the museum was looking to remove the engine from their collection, as far as we know only the IOWSR approached them in regards of taking it on.
You may question their actions for getting engines like Haydock and the E1 that just aren't 'authentic' enough to be there, but as I said before few could deny they'd take good care of them.
I have no doubt that the IOWSR would look after the locos and I have never called that into question.
I meant fake as painting Haydock in say Southern livery and naming it Freshwater, doing this would negate the real history of the loco. No real problem with the loco (or the E1) running on the IOW (although there also may be other appropriate locations), however they should run there with their own identities. Apart from maintaining the locos histories, this would allow the railway to educate interested members of the public about how this loco is very similar to one that used to run here etc, instead or having to explain why the loco they are looking at was never called the name it's carrying, never ran here and was never painted in the colours it's wearing.
I don't think it's fair to say that no-one cared about the E1, I think it came down to money and lack thereof, which is not the same as not caring.
Personally, i can't see the harm. I get your point, but at the end of the day, a livery is jus a coat of paint, easily changed. Im sure a lot of people besides me would love to be able to see an authentic- looking engine carrying FY&NR livery and actually working trains, which is certainly not what it's doing now.
And reference an earlier comment about painting a Terrier in NCB livery, there is one which immediately springs to mind, which was presented in the livery of the Newhaven Harbour Company for many years, and I don't recall any outrage during all that time, but yes, I know, I am playing devil's avocado here.
(Steps carefully into livery / authenticity minefield ...) In that case, though, the Newhaven Harbour Co. livery was historically appropriate to that specific loco - which restoring the E1 as a long-lost IoW classmate isn't. Perhaps a more appropriate comparison might be the restoration of the Spa Valley Terrier as "Sutton" when really it is "Whitechapel".
I don't see how the Ivatts and Austerities can be called 'fakes' - they carry the identity they always have - indeed there have been calls to give them the next number in the island series which have been rejected. The IWSR probably has the most correct loco fleet of any standard gauge line in terms of percentage of engines that were 'natives' to the line... and yet gets the most criticism for running non local steam!
Moving to Haydock, as I understand it the sister engine on the island was owned by the contractor who built the FYN and it pulled the first train (one open wagon carrying people). I believe it then moved on, it didn't form part of the FYN which was originally run by the IWC anyway. No-one is talking about a fake Southern livery.
Separate names with a comma.