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Just found this footage...

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by dublo6231, May 27, 2014.

  1. GHWood

    GHWood Member

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    NELPG's report into the Blue Peter incident is here if anyone is interested.

    http://www.nelpg.org.uk/images/simplelists/nelpg_news/166_april_1995.pdf
     
  2. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Interesting that it says the fireman shut the regulator. The NELPG rep told me that he shut the regulator but, by that time, the damage was done and the engine had almost stopped itself. I've never before heard that sand was applied, though.
     
  3. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Page 45 and onwards:

    "Were the Southern Pacifics so much worse than any other 4-6-2 then? There is no proved technical comparative basis for measurement of slipping that can be applied to the case, so one has to fall back on judgement (which so often is coupled with bias!) to provide an answer. The first British pacific - the GWR Great Bear - is reported to have been a bad 'slipper'. The Gresley designed 4-6-2s were by no means immune from this failing, nor were LMSR engines of that wheel arrangement, as reference to the columns of The Railway Magazine will show. [...] Two weeks noting of the start of a train from Rugby platform 1 (gradient of 1 in 365 in favour) produced no clean start, even on dry rail, from LMS Duchesses. Matters became so bad on the Eastern Region that an instruction was issued to drivers not to exceed 50% cut off on starting and, although considerable improvement was effected with the BR Britannia type, the LNER types did not benefit very much.

    Probably the worst record of any was of a Duchess slipping for almost one hour (yes! hour) at Liverpool Lime Street trying to leave with a London train. The Southern engines used to slip, but the authorities took immediate action: for example, no. 7 platform at London Bridge was on a rising gradient and sharply curved and could cause trouble to London-bound trains which called there in the morning rush hour. Ramsgate-based light pacifica could sometimes have difficulty on starting and, if a shovel or two of sand from the sand box on the platform was of no avail, the following electric train was called forward to assist in the rear. The delay was seldom more than five minutes. When electric traction took over all traffic the stop was omitted!"

    Tom
     
  4. Bulleid Pacific

    Bulleid Pacific Part of the furniture

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    That's the one. Thanks!
     
  5. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Guest

    Wasn't a pilot or anything at all available to assist in the local area ? - surely ?
     
  6. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    I don't know; I wasn't there on that occasion. I've simply quoted in full what I read, but it would appear that Ozzie Nock did actually witness the event.
     
  7. greenslade

    greenslade Member

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    i was on newcastle station when hamilton slipped trying to start a very heavy train.the late kim malyon jumped on to the footplate and shut the regulator,thereby avoiding srious damage.i cant remember when this happened but the train was going to carlilse.
     
  8. staffordian

    staffordian Well-Known Member

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    I'm trying to bring to mind something I read a few years ago about a slipping incident.

    It was not preservation related, and though my memory may be suspect, I think it was a CJ Allen book. It was definitely at Stafford station and I think, surprisingly, it was a 4-6-0 (Claughton, Jubilee, Scot?) rather than a Pacific. The author refers to the driver's inability to close the regulator for some time, and mentioned three sets of significant indentations in the rails.

    Does anyone else remember reading this?
     
  9. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    Sounds familiar. If it's the same incident, it was another Big Lizzie and this Derek Cross was the witness.
     
  10. MarkinDurham

    MarkinDurham Well-Known Member

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    I recall a DC article describing such an incident - somewhere on the G&SW main line, iirc. There are also reports of Gresley Pacifics having trouble restarting at York on occasions - curved platform, rails wet from water crane spillages, heavy train etc...
     
  11. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    I remember Norman McKillop (Toram Beg) in one of his articles in Trains Illustrated describing the problems of restarting at York, and how he overcame them. The issue was the severe curvature in the platform, and drivers' braking methods. Most would bring their train to a stand using the vacuum brake, and since the train brakes greatly out-performed that of the engines this had two effects as the train brought the mass of the engine to a stand. Firstly, the couplings throughout the train would be stretched out, so on restarting the engine had to get the entire train moving in one go; and the effect of the engine's momentum at the front was to move the train towards the inside of the curve so the flanges were hard up against the inside face of the inner rail. When the engine tried to move forward, this brought further pressure and friction between these two faces.
    His method was to brake as normal until the train was almost at a stand, then release the train brakes and use only the engine brakes, possibly the tender handbrake assisted as necessary by the reverser, for the final stop. The result was that there was some slack in the couplings so he could pick his train up one coach at a time; and the effect of the engine's stopping the train was to force the coaches' flanges against the outside rail. As the engine moved off, it would pull the flanges away from the outer rail and so reduce the friction and rolling resistance, and so he could usually make a clean start.

    Mr McKillop came across as an exceptionally intelligent driver with a sufficient grasp of basic physics to get the best from his engine, the A3 pacific "Spearmint".
     
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  12. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    Yes, you're right, that's the one, so possibly a different occasion.
     
  13. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    If I stopped a passenger train on the loco brake alone with the train brakes released, I'd be getting my knuckles rapped. The coaches would see-saw back and forth and, although the couplings wouldn't be tight,when they eventually came to rest, they wouldn't generally be slack. With a vac braked A3 or A4 it would also have required the use of the tender brake, as you suggest. It also takes quite a time for all the brakes to come off and the last ones to do so are those at the rear of the train so they are still going to be hanging back.
     
  14. Neil_Scott

    Neil_Scott Part of the furniture

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    Perhaps with regular practise Mr McKillop was able to perfect it to a degree, and I'm sure BR wouldn't have liked trains being stopped on the engine brake only.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2014
  15. MarkinDurham

    MarkinDurham Well-Known Member

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    One problem is that we're comparing modern methods with what was done in yesteryear. If Norman McKillop and/or his colleagues had found a method that worked for a particular situation, then in the absence of complaints, damage or 'incidents', management would apply the Nelson touch, as it were, if it kept the job going.
     
  16. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    Practices change. Looking through some early accident reports on http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/updates.php where a train had overrun the signal or stop block, I was surprised to read that LNWR Rules required the driver to stop using the tender handbrake and to keep the automatic vacuum brake for emergency use only. Of course, it took some time for that railway to adopt the automatic vacuum brake, or to have it imposed upon it.

    By the way, Steve, I'm only reporting what Mr McKillop wrote! He was though a very experienced top link driver.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2014
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  17. Victor

    Victor Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    Maybe something (anything) could have run down from Edge Hill and given a hand. I think after 30 minutes it would have been a sensible request.
     
  18. pete2hogs

    pete2hogs Member

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    Norman McKillop is only talking about finally bringing the train to rest on the engine brake. I've seen this done on the GE section at Shenfield another curving platform with a climb from the start - basically bring the train down to walking pace or less, let it roll a couple of dozen yards for the train brakes to come off, then do the final stop on the engine brake alone. All quite smooth. LNER coaches had buckeye couplers which only had a tiny amount of 'give', but presumably just enough - or perhaps it was avoiding the flanges binding on the inner rail that was the important bit?

    Norman McKillop and his colleagues applied a level of thought to their work that would shame the average graduate but which the 'modernisers' would dismiss as 'manual labour'. More fool the modernisers.
     
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  19. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I'm not that familiar with Lime Street, but isn't it a terminus? In that case, presumably difficult to get a banker in behind, and putting a pilot on the front wouldn't help much since you would have to stop again somewhere to detach it.

    Was it not usual practice at Lime Street to have a pilot engine bring the stock in with the train engine on the back, and then allow the pilot to bank the train until it was on the move?

    Tom
     
  20. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    The workings at Lime Street were interesting, to the say the least. I often as a school boy watched the comings and goings, and my memory is that trains were not usually banked out of the station, even to the end of the platform. The loco at the stop block instead followed the departing train along the platform at a distance of a few yards, and stopped at the starter at the platform's end. This practice continued after the end of steam. Look at this, about 1.40:

    A bit later I did work at Edge Hill but the link (guards) I was in didn't work into the station; I never signed to road the Lime Street. But I did speak to drivers who not only confirmed my memories, but went so far as to say that, should an engine not follow the train along the platform, it was the driver's responsibility to inform the bobby.

    Strange but true.
     

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