Lack Of Mainline Steam Loco's

There is a problem, no doubt about that. The engines are requiring more work at each overhaul and money is in short supply. If previous years are anything to go by the fleet will be even further reduced at the end of July. We always have problems developing. This year could end up being the John Cameron/Ian Riley show for the Summer season. Things will get better, the West Coast fleet will be attended to, 60007 was always a good engine but is having a peculiar spell at the moment, 4464 is going to have the chance to show a little of what an A4 is capable of, Clan Line just continues as ever and the NRM will make up for the fact that they did not get the SVR involved at the outset of 4472's overhaul.
For the long term we need either better engines or to accept that steam will be restricted to a few select routes

 

If the number of available locomotives increases, then the amount of work per loco will, in the main, reduce (The Jacobite will remain open to only a few locos due to restrictions on route and the level of commitment required from the owners/support crew).

In short, for your average large express loco, is a shortage and hence lots of work for the ones that are available the only way that anything like financial viability remains?

I don't think this is anything new - probably 20 years ago, I worked out that the number of trips likely to then be available, certainly without doing one of the "regulars" (which have a lower daily fee anyway) would not cover the costs talked of for overhauls and maintenance. The number of locos was more and number of trains less. Nevertheless, I suspect a big express loco might need 25 to 30 trips a year to cover the sport of costs of overhaul you hear discussed - all "one-off" trips with what I understand the "full" fee to be. That is a trip a fortnight but as there are very few in January and February, it is really rather more frequent. Quite a commitment. (At the same time, it is probably better for the loco to do a few trips without break, but perhaps not always for the support crew!)

Mind you, the engineering views I hear suggest that if you do a thorough overhaul, you shouldn't need to spend the same again in 10 years and certainly can keep in reliable operation for spending less than half every 5 years. This is what the wise owners tend to do. However, if you fund the rigours of the mainline work you are doing means a £100k plus spend every winter, that doesn't leave that much for the "major" work! I have also heard sad cases where being £100k to £150k short to "bottom" work at one overhaul would mean spending double that more at the next one.

Steven

 

There are similarities to the 'New builds -how many will run?' thread here. Surely it is the issue of how thinly to spread the jam again? Leaving aside the commercial owners who will make their own decisions on which and how many locos to prepare to mainline running standard according to the market and revenue, there are the individual loco groups who own one or maybe a handfull of locos and depend to a greater extent on donations from supporters. There is much competition here and the choice of the enthusiast not part of a specific group will often depend on what their favourite loco is - see discussions on this forum ad nauseam. In some cases their pet project will be a very costly restoration that may not even be intended for mainline running while there may be other much cheaper overhauls that could put a loco back onto the mainline. So how to make the choice? Do we want half a dozen Bulleid pacifics trundling along preserved railways or a couple stretching their legs on the mainline?

I am not an insider or expert as far as the issues of running steam on the mainline are concerned, so shoot me down in flames if you must, but I wonder if the question should be 'How much co-ordination is there among locomotive operators'? Would it be possible to identify more formally a pool of potential mainline locos and phase their boiler tickets/overhauls so as to avoid periodic shortfalls. Would it also be possible to create a central funding point for such a pool to which people like myself, who rarely travel on steam specials because that is not something that particularly appeals to me, but enjoy watching and photographing them, can donate. I know I can donate to a specific locomotive appeal but an overview of what needed to be done at what cost, and on keeping a spread of classes and companies represented, might be a more efficient way of doing things.

 

The closest thing you'll have to a pool in the traditional sense is the Merchant Navy class. Its just a shame that its starting to look like many of them will miss the mainline party. However, I should think there's room for at least two, so 35018 and 35027 look to be set to reap the benefit of being a Class 8 on the big railway. Whilst I'd love to see 35009 emerge, it would probably coincide with one of the former bowing out in several years time, if at all.

 

What sort of toll will the k1 and 44871 endure with 6 months on the Jacobite? Hope the earnings are adequate.

 

i don't think they would do it year after year if it was not profitable.

 

Depends what you mean by "profit". I understand from practically everyone I have spoken to who does support crew on the Jacobite that they enjoy it immensely and and this is listed as one of the reasons that the K1 is there every year.

What people must not forget for all mainline work is that it is very labour intensive and the promoter of the train doesn't just hire a steam loco but also all the support crew. It is the support crew who light up, clean and prepare the loco, do the mainline FTR, stay with it and water (and when needed coal) it, then dispose of it, inspect it and undertake any repairs, usually without a pit or much in the way of facilities. This involves long days and I hate to think how much of the loco's fee would be taken up by costing the manpower and their support costs essential to make the trip run, even at "cost" for a suitable rate that would be paid for such work. Of course, in reality, the support crew are mainly or totally volunteer and hence most or all of the loco fee goes the benefit of the machine. That doesn't remove the necessity of a group of people being mainline steam support crew for free and enjoying it for the entire business to have any future.

Steven

 

Come on Jacobite revenues are well over £1mn, possibly as high as £2mn each year, someone's making a nice thick wad out of this.
There's never a shortage of locos to do this job either.

Not knocking successful commerciality, but lets not get the bleeding heart and violin out..when it comes to mainline steam, this trip will be the Alamo when all else fails.

 

As a bank manager colleague of mine is fond of saying, "Turnover is vanity, profit is sanity and cash is king". Turnover of £1 million or £2 million doesn't make anyone a "wad" if costs are £1.5 million or £2.5 million. I am not saying that they are - I don't know and I would be surprised if anyone else on here does either (well, probably one occasional poster who is probably having a good laugh at all this).

My point is exactly the same be it loco hire fee or overall takings for any train or operation - look not at what you think the top line is but rather what the bottom line might me. Big Sales does not equal automatic profit. I don;t really quote any particular example - the work involved with The Jacobite was mentioned by some-one else and I pointed out the commitment involved in mainline running in terms of manpower.

Steven

 

True but this business venture has expanded many times over since it's inception.
Thats hardly an indication of failure.
We may not know the actual costs, but given it's a growing, not shrinking venture one can assume it's doing good... this year it's running for 6 months with 2 trains...if it were on it's uppers... it wouldnt be in such a good way would it ?

Sure £2mn is a big figure, and doesnt equal profit, and in the real world this is peanuts with an apple seed profit... but in the world of preservation its high up there as a good straw man of success... Your not going to convince me that FW-Mallaig is a skin flint, thread bare on it's knees operation with a daily begging bowl hoping to survive.

 

I'd be very surprised if there was much of a business case for a loco owner on The Jacobite without factoring the sheer pleasure of doing it.
The actual commercial operation is another matter entirely because wcr is a profit seeking organisation. If they had to pay a full commercial rate for loco hire it might not make a profit. Without figures it's guesswork but I dare say we all ought to be grateful.

 

I don't know the figure for loco hire but I've a reasonable idea and it isn't peanuts. NELPG may rely on volunteers and put lots of money in the bank but I think that Ian Riley pays his team and he is also in it for profit.

 

Mr Riley himself has declared that he has volunteers as well as paid staff on his support crew(s), although admittedly in the minority (10-12 paid staff plus 2 volunteers on the recent GB VI).

One interesting aspect of those figures is that the number of paid staff was partly dictated by the working time directive, which volunteers are not necessarily required to adhere to (depending on the nature/wording of any agreement in place).

Stu

 

There seems to be conflicting views then. The prevailing wisdom is that it is not possible to earn enough to cover the running and overhaul costs. However some imply that earnings from the Jacobite represent a profitable opportunity for the owners. Despite the arduous duty. Suspect Bean counter is wisest counsel.
If wcr used 44932 and 48151 on Jacobite they'd make a much larger profit so I suspect the accelerated wear is a deterrent.

 

I think the biggest thing not mentioned in this thread is attitude.
Yes overhauls are costing more but that is only natural as resources increase in price and parts become older and more fatigued.
But, as has been mentioned many times, there still seems to be a make do and mend culture pandemic in the preservation sector.
Planned preventative maintenance and replacement seems to be the way forward as can be seen by the reliability produced by some locos and teams.
It is a different business model to most but it seems to work.

 

There is definitely a need to try and keep one step ahead of potential problems with steam locomotives, those involved with 35028 being a prime example of a team that works towards anticipating future problems and acting upon them before they become an issue and an embarrassment.

 

Can someone tell me what brought about the demise of SLOA?

Dave

 

Were they not conceived as an organisation to deal with the only TOC at the time ie BR. With the demise of BR and the subsequent relaxations the need for a single body has diminished... ?

 

Is it not intended to introduce ERTMS on ALL routes sooner or later, with the Cambrian just being a test bed to try to sort out the (serious) teething troubles? If so, any loco that is to run on NR will have to be fitted, regardless of how difficult that may be for steam.

 

Looks good for 45699 being mainline ready after her loaded test run today. Footage at Low Bentham, Long Preston and the climb up Wilpshire bank .