Large and Small locomotive economics, ex-West Somerset Railway developments

The midhants certainly operates as Tom describes.

 

On the NYMR, Grosmont and Goathland certainly do not have sufficient overlap to allow two trains to enter at once. Levisham, has traps/sidings at both ends of the loop but, AFAIK, two trains are not allowed to enter simultaneously. If it is, I've never seen it happen.

 

Brilliant, Steve! I really enjoyed that. It was fascinating to note you and your mate "using the railway to drive the train," ie. using a rising gradient, or a tightening curve to bleed your speed, so that you arrive at a TSR, or PSR, at the right speed without braking: the true mark of someone who "knows the road." (After 30 years or so, like me, you've probably picked up one or two things!)

I was also amused to note your Black Five stopping "on the dead centre," and having to be reversed to get going, since it's happened to me more times than I can remember, not just with a Black Five, but with any two - cylinder engine, where you stop somewhere, usually on a gradient and with a decent load, and one cylinder is on the "dead centre," at one or other end of its stroke, therefore only open to lead steam, and the other one, on the half - stroke, just doesn't have enough thrutch to move the train.

It may amuse you to know that it has also happened to me with a 3 - cylinder engine, (an A4, of which, I'm sure you have far more experience than me) In my defence, I had 10 Mk1s, for 355 tons, hanging off the hook, on a 1 in 100 gradient at Bridgnorth, having got the train moving and been stopped by the guard's setter, because of late - arriving muppets, sorry, passengers. I was staring at the pressure gauge, (250) and the steam chest gauge, (180), thinking, "one of you buggas, (cylinders) has got to be taking steam somewhere." "40, 000lbs tractive effort. WTF?"

But no, a gentle roll - back was needed, (we had 64 diners on the soup course behind the tender), then I finally got the S. O. B, on the move. It was fine after that and I loved the machine, 60009, bless it.

It also happened with a 4 - cylinder machine, a King, at Hampton Loade. I had eased forward a few feet, at the guard's request, as we were foul at the back, having 8 Mk1s and an engine on the back. When rightaway came, I opened the regulator and it sat there and looked at me. 4 cylinders, 40, 000lbs tractive effort and zilch. In the King's defence, you could only get 50lbs on the steam chest gauge in first valve and you couldn't get into second valve without dislocating your shoulder, if the engine was in more than 20% cut - off. Again, a short roll - back, then all the cylinders decided to play and away we went. In all other respects, the King was an absolute dream to drive.

I understand the Swindon prejudice and used to share it, being a Midland man, but, over many years, I have gained huge respect for Panniers, Prairies, 73XXs, 28XXs, Manors, Halls, and, as for Castles, well, they are just sublime.

The above notwithstanding, 45110 has my heart above all others.

Steve, I would like to PM you about your experience on Black Fives.

Regards,

John

 

Thanks.

45428 seems to make a habit of sticking on centres when coming off the EVL into Grosmont. It does with me, anyway. Two cylinder locos often do it but some are worse than others. Our Standards don't seem too bad in this.
As regarding A4's, apart from a day on 60009, my experience is limited to 60007 and it regularly sticks on centres. However, I always reckon on a 3 cylinder loco being weaker at the moment of starting than a 2 cylinder loco. The cylinders are obviously of a smaller diameter and, like a 2 cylinder loco, you can get into a position where there is effectively only one cylinder open to steam. Assuming 75% cut off, if cylinder 1 is at 76% of its stroke, cylinder 2 is not yet at the point of maximum torque and cyl 3 has literally just started its stroke so provides no practical torque. A4's were originally built with 65% limiting cut-off but I believe this was altered during the war for forward gear. I don't know about back gear but the reverser still says 65% max for back gear. Once on the move, though, three cylinders beats two.

PM's always welcome, unless they are asking for money.

 

On the WSR, the only loop with traps at both ends is at Crowcombe, so is the only station where two trains can enter at once. This is also to do with the fact that the station is at the top of banks from both sides, so it is preferable to not stop trains at the home signal and have them restart on a gradient. Plus, it is all downhill to the next loops either side (Bishops Lydeard and Williton) so runaways are prevented thus.

I believe that the extension of Williton loop which is scheduled for early next year will have a trap point at the up end - there is already one at the down end because the 'normal' position of the points at that end route into the north yard, so trains will then be able to enter Williton simultaneously.

One other fact people may find interesting - if a down train arrives at Blue Anchor first, the Down Home can only be pulled off if the level crossing gates are open to trains, even if the starter is on. Presumably this is to prevent trains crashing through the gates!

 

From memory: the generic BR instructions for crossing under the token block regulations say: the first train stops at the home, then can be admitted to the loop. The second train must be held at its home until the first is fully in the loop. This isn't about overlaps as such because "overlap" isn't a concept in token block regs, but it's the same idea: if the arriving train overruns it's safer to hit a stationary loco head-on than it is to run into the side of a carriage that's entering the loop.

Incidentally the BR rules specifically said the first train must stop at the home, not almost stop (as it would if the starter was on but it wasn't a crossing move).

 

Found an obsolete copy of BR Signalling Regulations on line at:
http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/Railway_...ent/Railway Group Standards/BR30062 Iss 1.pdf
I can't see it having changed much over the years. Section 9 says:
9.1 Unless otherwise authorised, the home signals in both
directions must be maintained at Danger when trains are
approaching a crossing place from opposite directions. When
the first train to be allowed to draw forward has stopped, the
home signal may be cleared to permit it to proceed to the
station or section signal. After it has again stopped, the
Signalman may then clear the signals for the other train
provided the line is clear.

 

Overlaps are a essential part of all signal regulations on running lines.

 

That's not true, as it happens. Some signalling regulations - Track Circuit Block, for example - have overlaps. Other signalling regulations - Absolute Block or Electric Train Token for example - don't have overlaps. They have Clearing Points, but that's a similar but distinctly different concept.

 

Here's something for the economists to ponder on. As an active volunteer I :-

1) quite like to have a bit of variety,
2) don't want to end up a dripping wreck on a summers day as it's my hobby, Judging by the amount that I drink during a summer firing turn I'd say fluid loss due to sweat is at least one litre if not more on a 40 mile round trip. (I normally drink 2-3 litres of water plus 500ml of an isotonic drink during a turn.)

So from my perspective I'd think twice about the number of turns I do every week if those turns are going to require flat out effort, multiple shunts, no break for 7 hours plus.
Different thing altogether if I was being paid but I'm not. Not a whinge, just the counterpoint for those who forget most heritage railways are run by a volunteer workforce who also want to enjoy themselves. Few, if any, heritage lines would survive if they needed a paid staff so it's all a question of balance.

 

Not sure how we've got onto this subject - it's not really thread drift, more a new start - but, it is a good subject to ponder.

I agree with the desire for variety.
If you don't want to end up a dripping wreck on a hot summers day then I'd suggest that you stay off steam locomotives! Drinking and becoming a dripping wreck is something I've often wondered about. I used to drink lots of tea and found I ended up dripping profusely, if not a wreck. However, I now limit the amount I drink to a more leisurely amount, without going to the opposite extreme and find that the dripping is far less.
Length of turn is something quite controversial and the subject of much discussion on the NYMR at the moment. There are those who say that I've come to drive/fire a locomotive and that's what I want to do so I don't want to be sitting around. There are those who won't come for a single trip (short day) - it's not worth the journey to get there. Then there are those who want an 8-9 hour day with a PNB at roughly the mid point.
Personally, I don't mind a long day (12 hrs) and I'm not bothered about a significant PNB, as long as I have chance for a quick cuppa at each end of the line. I'm quite happy grabbing a bite to eat on the go. I don't mind late finishes and prefer them to early starts but I know that there are others who prefer the opposite. I do wonder if it is to do with what you do/did in your working life? I was used to long shifts and have never bothered with a lunch break as a routine.

 

Steve,
Interesting and thought provoking stuff.
In no particular order:
Length of turn. - I have a 90 min (average) drive so prefer to do an early on the WSR as I'm travelling there when traffic is light. So book on around 06.00 for a 09.30 off shed time and a 10.15 first service train. The first chance for a break comes once we're on the stock (not counting a tea as we get changed). This is normally thwarted by the questions from arriving passengers to a large extent. I always feel it's important not to slope off and ignore our visitors. On the BL - MD you have less than an hour to run round and while it's not tight by any means no real opportunity to do much other than a quick wee and tea. Back at BL 13.45 and off the loco. First real chance of a break since booking on. I always take a break before driving home and rehydrate as best as I can.
As to drinking, yes if you drink less you sweat less but tea is not as good as water if you are sweating. It's actually essential that you put in more than enough water for your body to sweat out as much as it needs. Tea is a bit of a diuretic so not the best thing to have. Also you lose electrolytes so putting those back is also a good idea. (Hence my use of an isotonic drink). If you've ever felt a slight cramp at the end of a turn or a stiffness of movement it's a good sign you've dehydrated a little. This is not good as the body robs the water you'd normally make into urine to allow it to sweat. So if you dehydrate not only can your core temp be higher that is good for you but you probably wee less than your body needs to expel the waste products.
I don't think this is too far off topic as it is related to locomotive size and work rate. I personally find it easier to work a large loco over the line than a smaller one that's much closer to it's load limit. Now I know that's partly down to my (lack of) skill but it's a factor that needs to be accounted for.
WE have a few ex-BR guys, older than me, who relish the "challenge" of running a smaller tank engine with maximum load. I don't mind it occasionally, and it's a great feeling if you get it spot on right. It's not something I want to do on every turn though just for the sake of saving a little coal.
Should also say that like a lot of people I mainly drove a desk for 30 plus years.

 

It's an interesting line of thought on the big / small debate.

I'm not sure I'd agree with you about small engines being more tiring. I've had reason to fire everything from a P class with two coaches to a West Country or 9F with 6 / 7 (and an S15 with 8 coaches and a regulator-shut West Country) and I would say that physically, a small engine is much less tiring. Mentally more demanding, but physically less so. Coupling and uncoupling is the same regardless of size, but on a small engine you shovel less coal, and - crucially - generally don't spend so long dragging coal forward!

Our typical days are up to about 11.5 hours (some duties are shorter), with three round trips. We have 19 minutes to run round at East Grinstead (during which time a small engine would need to take water, and the loco crew have to operate the ground frame at the south of the station); we have 43 minutes at Sheffield Park, but that involves taking water and generally, most engines will take coal at some point, normally between the second and third trips. So not really much time for a "PNB": I tend to work (for food at least) on the little and often principle of having a roll or a banana at some point on each trip. Two other little tips that I have picked up from experienced drivers that work for me. One is to try to get off the engine when you can, rather than spend all day on the footplate. The other is to try to have a wash on every trip, which both helps you cool down and makes you feel a bit fresher. Not always possible, but if you can achieve either, you feel better for the next trip, especially on hot days.

At weekends, we have two aids to crew comfort: firstly we have a lobby turn rostered to fetch drinks at each run round at Sheffield Park. Secondly, the spare turn crew are supposed to offer to run the loco round after the first trip (which is typically about mid way through the day) to give the crew a break. Some crews avail themselves of the offer and some don't, but essentially it gives you a break if you want one. Midweek, the duties are the same, but no lobby turn and no spare turn crew, so you have to fetch your own drinks...

Typically, our three trip duties would have a crew of three (driver, fireman, cleaner) who would share the duties between them, so typically (but by no means universally - depends on the specific people present) you might find that a driver drives two trips; the fireman fires one and drives one; and the cleaner fires two. Midweek, it is more likely that you might only have two (though the ideal is always three): in the last couple of months I've had two three-trip days when I have fired all three trips - one day on a P class with Autumn Tints, one the aforementioned day on the S15 with between 281 and 420 tons load. Physically, the day on the P was easier, but in terms of locomotive performance, it was closer to its grate limit than the S15!

Tom

 

I have to agree with Steve above that, if you don't want to end up a dripping wreck on a hot summers day, don't sign on for a day firing a steam engine. That said, if you are on, you need to look after yourself. I have known and worked to avoid the effects of dehydration for over 30 years and I am occasionally astonished at how little some of the younger lads seem to be aware of the problem. Typical young male bravado, I suppose.

I used to keep isotonic drinks with me when I was regularly weight lifting in the 80s and first became aware of them. Now, I just make sure I have plenty of drink, water, or tea available and top up with food containing sugar or salt as appropriate. I have never had much of an appetite when firing during the day. So long as I had a good breakfast, I was normally fine, occasionally grabbing a sarnie during one of the run round breaks.

One thing I do make sure of now, is that, if the run round is curtailed because of late running and it is an allocated break, I will depart late rather than skimp on mine, or the fireman's food. You can make up time without difficulty, you cannot just keep running on empty, energy - wise. Our job is physically demanding, particularly during the summer and, like aldfort, I drove a patrol car, or a desk for 30 years. I am fairly robust, despite my 65 years, and so are my mates, but I have seen the odd person collapse on the footplate because of dehydration, or heat exhaustion. The environment is not for everyone. Coping with it well is also a result of long practice and exposure.

I had a guest on earlier this year, a 35 - year old male, who watched me sling on 50 - 60 shovels of coal on a Bulleid Pacific at Kidderminster, prior to departure. (the fire was almost out) and said, "My God, you're fit! Do you go to the gym a lot?" I said, "I'm 64 and knackered and it's been nearly 30 years since I went to a gym, but I have shovelled a lot of coal in that time!"

I have seen one or two young cleaners watch with similar open eyes as the old git does the biz without breaking sweat. It's all down to practice.

Regards,

John

 

Not that long ago, NYMR rosters included what was known as a 'three tripper'. It was, as it suggests, three return trips from Grosmont to Pickering. 108 miles of footplate work and it was everyone's desire to be rostered to this turn, rather than the more common two trippers (a mere 72 miles). The usual routine was for the driver to drive the first and last and the fireman to drive the middle return trip. If there was a cleaner rostered, he fired the middle stint, otherwise it was the driver. There was no real break; you were either on the move, taking water or, if on a tank loco, going for more coal. Nowadays, a three-tripper is frowned upon by many although they do exist from time to time (there's one on this coming Saturday, for instance). Times change.
As I said earlier, I tend to take my lunch on the go. I sneakily let the fireman drive for a trip to Pickering around lunchtime and, if I'm firing, once over summit, there isn't much to do apart from keep an eye on the water/pressure and what is going on around you so I've plenty of time to get my sandwich and pasty whilst sat down in the fireman's seat. Unwritten rule No.1 always applies, though and I always make sure that I have my food with me right from the start of the day.
Talking of the fireman's seat, when I'm firing, I always sit down with my head out of the window when I'm not otherwise engaged in my duties. It helps keep me cool and relaxed(?!) I do notice that many firemen and, especially cleaners, don't do this. In fact, it is a regular comment from me to a cleaner who stands there, inevitably with shovel in hand almost like a walking stick, to 'sit down and relax and pretend that you are in total control.'
When circumstances dictate, I don't make sure that I take my allotted break. It is a matter of pride that there is no booked time lost to me and I'll endeavour to make up any time by running round and being ready for the off as soon as I practically can. I do, however, do my best to ensure that the crew gets whatever it needs in the way of refreshments & toilet but it does come down to teamwork. I'll get the teas whilst the fireman uncouples. I'll build up the fire whilst the guard is doing a brake test to let the fireman go to the toilet or whatever and, if there's a cleaner, so much the better (but not to act as a tea boy; he can build up the fire and learn something.)
That's the way I see it but I know that there's a growing number of footplate volunteers who want 8/9 hours with a good break in the middle of it.

 

I prefer a long day with plenty to do compared to a shorter day with more breaks. I volunteer on the Talyllyn, Ffestiniog and Welsh Highlands and I quite enjoy the high-octane days on the FR (especially the FR with its intense early turn on the 1010/1335 trains) compared to the TR. The TR's slower paced day is nice for a change and has its merits but I prefer the harder day 'up the coast' sometimes.

 

One of the things hat becomes clear in this thread is the different operational patterns and practices used by different preserved lines. Also thinking about it I have to admit nobody seems overly fond of our "all day" turn. It's 40 miles BL - MD - BL with a long layover at MD.

 

When you say 'all day' what is involved and what are the start/finish times? 40 miles is only just longer than Pickering-Grosmont-Pickering and a lot of people don't like doing that because it is a short day.
On the NYMR, running to Whitby has brought new headaches in terms of rostering. Both a morning and an afternoon turn have to lay over in Whitby whilst a Northern train comes and goes. This leaves a crew with about 1¾ hours of sitting around and twiddling their thumbs with little to do other than watch the seagulls and the antics in the car park. Not very good use of resources in terms of manpower, not to mention locos and stock. OK for a PNB, perhaps, but not at times when people want their PNB. The problems are compounded by the fact that not all trains run to Whitby so (for example) the first morning arrival at Grosmont goes on to Whitby and does not form the 10.30 for Pickering, which has to have a different loco, stock and crew. The next train from Pickering arrives at 11.05 and in previous times would form the 11.30 for Pickering but the 11.30 departure is now the through train from Whitby so the 11.05 arrival crew, loco and stock now have to sit around till 12.30 before doing useful work again but have to shunt their train into sidings to allow the 12.05 arrival platform space.
All this does make Grosmont a most interesting place to spend a day watching trains but it does cause real headaches for those involved.

 

How many separate crews does the West Somerset Railway peak timetable require?

Steven

 

BL 3 crews, split as one morning,(10.25BL,12,30 MD) one pm,(14.25BL 16.20 MD) one all day,(11.05BL15.15 MD);
MD 2 crews,one morning,(10.15MD 12.35 BL) one afternoon.(14.25MD 16.15BL) i.e 5 crews in total.
Afternoon crews empty pits after signing on. One can make ones self available for both am and pm trips.