If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Leaders.....

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Luke Bridges, Dec 30, 2019.

  1. MellishR

    MellishR Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    5,677
    Likes Received:
    3,384
    Apropos the possible length of run for a tank engine, someone please remind us what happened in the Sunny South exchanges between the LNWR and the LBSC.
     
  2. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    6,569
    Likes Received:
    6,820
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Without resorting to something as banal as "I honestly haven't the foggiest", how about "So that the suggestion for mechanical stoking would come from ASLEF"? :Meh:
     
  3. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    20,937
    Likes Received:
    38,638
    Location:
    215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Famously the Marsh I3 locos ran Rugby - Brighton on trial, non-stop for 77 miles from Rugby - Willesden Junction and no water pick up for 90 miles from Rugby - East Croydon (or vice versa).

    The coal and water consumption figures were, with the comparable LNWR loco:

    LBSCR No. 23 (eleven trips): Coal consumption: 27.4 lbs / mile Water consumption: 22.4 gallons / mile
    LBSCR No. 26 (one trip): Coal consumption: 28.1 lbs / mile Water consumption: 22.7 gallons / mile
    LNWR "Titan" (all trips): Coal consumption: 41.2 lbs / mile Water consumption: 36.6 gallons / mile

    Load was typically 7 bogies, about 220 tons.

    Apart from showing the abilities of the superheated I3 locos, which is generally how that is pitched, it has always struck me as a skilled bit of firing. Given the stated water consumption, a 90 mile trip only leaves about 100 gallons spare.

    Worth pointing out though that the gradient profile - certainly on the LBSCR bit - was much easier than on the "withered arm". The Traffic Manager's specification was for heavier loads on harder gradients than those trials. (Whether that was a realistic specification is a different matter). I would also assume that the LBSCR picked a "crack" crew for the trial, rather than an average crew.

    The I3s had 2,100 gallons and only about 100 left over at the end of the trip. FWIW, a BR Standard 4 has 2,000 gallons ...

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2020
    Bluenosejohn likes this.
  4. M Palmer

    M Palmer Guest

    Flicking through Robertson & he mentioned the Maunsell W himself once or twice so if you're gonna plagiarize, do it from the best! Interesting that Bulleid originally wanted a King Arthur for the testbed. Would that have been better than a H1? The damning thing is the table at the back comparing 36001 to U 31630. 48.6% more water, 68% more coal for example!
     
  5. Cartman

    Cartman Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    Messages:
    1,161
    Likes Received:
    850
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Why did the Southern never have water troughs? I can understand the Brighton and maybe SECR not having them as they didn't have any particularly long runs, but the LSWR did.
     
  6. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    10,423
    Likes Received:
    7,116
    Occupation:
    Gentleman of leisure, nowadays
    Location:
    Near Leeds
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I'm not in any position to comment on the gradients of the South Western main line (that's for Tom to do) but you need a reasonable length of level track to have troughs. If you don't have that where it can be used to advantage then there is no point in having them.
     
    jnc and Jamessquared like this.
  7. Cartman

    Cartman Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    Messages:
    1,161
    Likes Received:
    850
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The LYR and LNWR both managed to get some on their hilly Trans Pennine routes. The LNWR ones were inside Standedge tunnel, which was the only level track on the whole route.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2020
  8. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    20,937
    Likes Received:
    38,638
    Location:
    215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Basically because there was nowhere to site them. You need a long distance almost perfectly flat; and there is no point just having one - for example, you would probably have needed two or three between Waterloo and Exeter to make a non-stop run possible and there simply weren't three suitable sites. (If you are unfamiliar with the line, the mainline west of Salisbury was built on a "sawtooth" principle, but it means it is almost universally going either uphill or down, generally at reasonably steep gradients). The Southampton / Bournemouth road is similarly hilly; generally locos would stop at Southampton to take water. The Eastern section is similarly hilly, particularly with big slogs over the North Downs coming out of London.

    The upshot was that Southern engines developed with tenders having - for their respective eras - large water capacities while engine changes at Salisbury and again at Exeter became basically essential on West of England expresses. Roughly a maximum 90 - 105 minutes between water stops and / or loco changes became the standard to meet. London to Salisbury / Southampton / Portsmouth / Hastings / Dover or Ramsgate and Salisbury to Exeter are all basically within that length.

    Comparing a Merchant Navy and a Duchess is instructive: A Duchess has, I believe, 10 tons of coal but only 4,000 gallons of water. That's enough coal to get to Scotland, provided you repeatedly pick up water. Whereas a Merchant Navy has 5 tons of coal but between 5,000 - 6,000 gallons of water, which will comfortably get you to Salisbury, and back without more coal but after filling with water.

    Tom
     
    jnc, Wenlock, 30854 and 5 others like this.
  9. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Messages:
    6,868
    Likes Received:
    5,100
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Thorn in my managers side
    Location:
    72
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    MN's only ran on the line once I think but the WC/BofB's could not make a Bath to Bournemouth round trip without topping up on coal by all accounts
     
  10. bluetrain

    bluetrain Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2019
    Messages:
    632
    Likes Received:
    874
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Wiltshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The Caledonian and North British also had no water troughs in pre-Grouping days, so were in a similar position to the LSWR. It's 100 miles over hilly terrain from Carlisle to either Glasgow or Edinburgh, so big tenders were a necessity:

    https://railway-photography.smugmug.../McKintosh-CR-721-Class-Dunalastair/i-Stcjpnj
     
  11. Dunfanaghy Road

    Dunfanaghy Road Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2019
    Messages:
    608
    Likes Received:
    726
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Alton, Hants
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Mr. Drummond had ambitions of this nature, according to Don Bradley. The one and only (thank goodness!) E14, No. 335, had a scoop fitted to its tender when new, as did the 10 G14 and P14 class, Nos. 448 - 457. The potential sites for troughs were apparently near Fleet (Level from 36M 75ch to 38M 15ch) and Abbey Ford, near Templecombe. I don't know of the location, but the Gradient Manual 1887 shows a level from 109M 55ch to 110M 58ch (crossing the County boundary). Given the imposition of Engine changes at Salisbury after 1906 it's hard to see any need.
    Pat

    (Edited to correct typo Engine Number. Pat)
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
    Jamessquared and Cartman like this.
  12. Cartman

    Cartman Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    Messages:
    1,161
    Likes Received:
    850
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The troughs on the LYR Calder valley line were at Luddenden foot, near Halifax, and I've read that the track here wasn't quite level, it was a very slight gradient, of 1 in 377. Surely this can't be right? Anyone know?
     
  13. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2006
    Messages:
    2,622
    Likes Received:
    3,747
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Lecturer retired: Archivist of Stanier Mogul Fund
    Location:
    Wigan
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    1 in 377 isn't slight! It would certainly be noticeable to the driver of a train. I don't know the minimum gradient down which water would flow over a SMOOTH surface, and how smooth was the inner surface of the troughs might be is speculation.
     
    Davo likes this.
  14. Hermod

    Hermod Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2017
    Messages:
    722
    Likes Received:
    200
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Klitmoeller,Denmark
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    How long were throughs?
     
  15. Cartman

    Cartman Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    Messages:
    1,161
    Likes Received:
    850
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Usually somewhere between a quarter of a mile and half a mile long
     
  16. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    10,423
    Likes Received:
    7,116
    Occupation:
    Gentleman of leisure, nowadays
    Location:
    Near Leeds
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    If there is a head of just one inch between inlet and outlet then the water will flow, albeit very slowly, until there is no difference in surface level. In theory, you could have water troughs on a falling gradient but it would be flowing water and require constant replacement from a flowing source at the inlet end and an outlet at the downstream end. No different from a small stream, really. I'm not saying that was the case at Luddendenfoot, though.
     
  17. martin1656

    martin1656 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2014
    Messages:
    14,519
    Likes Received:
    8,825
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    St Leonards
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Why didn't the leader concept have oil firing, or liquified coal firing, that would have at least made the fireman's job easier as the fireman's cab would have not been subjected to the heat of the original design, the firebox could have been insulated and cab had cooling ducts built into it, to make the fireman's job cooler. but I guess the writing was already on the wall for steam at this point and I would have thought the Southern diesels would have been a far better option for the north Devon lines, a smaller BO BO version with a lighter axle weight .
     
  18. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2006
    Messages:
    2,622
    Likes Received:
    3,747
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Lecturer retired: Archivist of Stanier Mogul Fund
    Location:
    Wigan
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The plan was, I understand, to use oil firing but oil imports were very much reduced just after WWII. Britain was skint with little in the bank; the emphasis was on exporting rather than importing. Basically, it was home produced coal or nothing. The big plan to convert many engines to oil firing, and for which the oil storage tanks were built t some sheds, fell at the same hurdle.
     
    30854 and Cartman like this.
  19. Cartman

    Cartman Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    Messages:
    1,161
    Likes Received:
    850
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Yes, an oil storage plant was built at Rose Grove but the scheme was abandoned before a single drop of oil was ever delivered to the shed and it stood, unused, until the shed closed
     
  20. domeyhead

    domeyhead New Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2007
    Messages:
    395
    Likes Received:
    150
    I don't think gradient is the reason for lack of Southern troughs Tom - it's population density. In the north, faster trains could run up to 100 miles or more between major stops - something that never happened in the South because station stops even for expresses were typically closer together. On the south western main lines all express trains stopped at Southampton or Salisbury (70 miles from London) so water replenishment was made then. As you say, a Southern pacific tender could handle the requirement without the need for troughs. Had they been required the stretch between Farnborough and Basingstoke offered plenty of scope for them but no trains ran the distances between stops that would have required them.
     
    jnc likes this.

Share This Page