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Length of Turns

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by Steve, Aug 27, 2014.

  1. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I'm interested in hearing about the length of turns on heritage railways, from signing on to signing off. NYMR turns generally vary from 10¼ to 11¾ hours. I suspect that this is quite common on heritage railways where one crew will often prepare the loco, crew it for the day then dispose but I'd like to prove or disprove this suspicion.
     
  2. Islander

    Islander Member

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    On the IWSR I signed on today at 0730hrs, off duty at 1730hrs. Prepare, work and dispose Duty 1 (WD192 Waggoner). Duty 2 (W8 Freshwater) booked on at the same time and finished slightly earlier. The majority of our standard timetable duties are one crew, one engine. When it comes to special events requiring additional services a relief crew or late turn may be rostered to suit the circumstances.
     
  3. RA & FC

    RA & FC Member

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    Turns are kept under 12 hours at llangollen, but do involve prep, doing the full day and disposal. As above with events some turns are split to suit the timings.
     
  4. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Part of the furniture Staff Member Moderator

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    The ORR were taking an interest in working hours a while back, especially where crews had a substantial journey to reach their signing on point.
     
  5. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Part of the furniture

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    What relevance does this have for staff / volunteers who work on the Network; does any time spent working on / travelling to heritage lines affect their contracted hours and mandatory "rest" hours ?
     
  6. lil Bear

    lil Bear Well-Known Member

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    CVR Turns;

    Green Low - 5am sign-on / 4pm sign-off
    Green High - 5am sign-on / 5pm sign-off
    Yellow - 6am sign-on / 6pm sign-off
    Evening Turns - Relieve Early Crew (4pm/5pm finish 10pm)
    Special Events - Varies depending upon loco diagrams but it's always aimed for 12hrs max inc prep.

    Generally crews will do Prep + Service + dispose, though if there an evening train the Evening crew will dispose/prep the loco prior to the additinal running, letting the day crew go home half hour earlier.

    Speaking to the Rostering Officer yesterday though, they are looking at making it a later sign-on/sign-off for 2015.
     
  7. threelinkdave

    threelinkdave Well-Known Member

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    There are Safety policys on SVR which limit typical turn length, 10 to 12 hours with at least 12 hours between turns, including non safety critical work. Staff are also reminded of their obligations re rest if they undertake safety critical work in a professional capacity. When you sign on you certify you are suficiently rested.
     
  8. Avonside1563

    Avonside1563 Member

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    Foxfield have a maximum of 12 hours on duty with a minimum 12 hours rest in between.
     
  9. Standard 4MT

    Standard 4MT New Member

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    The footplate turns with the five trains a day to Whitby on the NYMR are now meant to be less hours in total worked.
    The Start and finish time of trains are Later/Earlier on new timetables, so this also cuts down the hours.
    You do of course when signing on, all grades, say you are fit, no drink or drugs in system and have fully re operated after a nights sleep.
    If you aren't, you naturally don't sign, but the drinks/drugs statement should never apply if you are on early turn next morning. Drugs also of course means prescribed, and if they cause any side effects or drowsiness.
    A very serious legal signing document.
     
  10. Andy B

    Andy B Member

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    It's one thing doing a full 10-12 hour day it's more about how many decent breaks do you get during the day? I'm my experience sone railways don't have a decent break at some point during the day. I drive at the gwsr and that typically is a 12 hour day for 3 rnd trips and 57 miles.
     
  11. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Ours are quite varied, not least because of the variety of turns (service trains, dining trains, pilots etc).

    But a general rule would be prepare - run - dispose for turns that are three round trips or less, which is achievable in less than 12 hours. Any loco duty that is more than three round trips would need a relief crew. Examples would be on most Saturdays, when the "A" engine runs four round trips, so is normally split prep + 2 trips for the morning crew and 2 trips + dispose for the relief crew; and the "B" engine runs five round trips (it is used on the evening Golden Arrow) so splits into prep + 3 trips on the service train and 2 trips + dispose on the evening Arrow.

    It's not a hard and fast rule, but in general, we roster Driver + Fireman for any service running two round trips or less; and Driver + Fireman + 3rd man for any service running more than two round trips. At weekends, we also roster a spare crew, one of whose tasks is to relieve the service crew on the run round after their first trip so they can, if desired, have a break. We also have a lobby attendant at weekends, for which one of the main duties is to ensure that crews are supplied with drinks - especially important on hot days.

    Tom
     
  12. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Thanks for the replies so far. They support my understanding that most heritage railway turns are on the long side but generally adhere to 12 hour max and rest rules, which I personally don't mind. On the NYMR there are some that feel that the turns are too long and are pushing for shorter days, typically 8-9 hours. The only way this can be achieved is by splitting turns and then people complain that the turns aren't long enough to justify the travelling to the Railway. I think that splitting most heritage railway turns would create the same problem in that they wouldn't be worth doing for the average volunteer who has to travel.

    There was an interesting comment from AndyB about breaks. I guess it depends on what you call a decent break. PNB's were introduced on the big railway to allow train crew to go to the toilet, etc on long runs. Most heritage railways don't create this problem. Personally, I find that a 15-20 minute run round is sufficient for me and long layovers can be quite boring, especially if you're in charge of a loco. I volunteer to drive and that's what I want to do, not sit around.

    Keep the replies coming in. it is interesting stuff. For me, anyhow.
     
  13. threelinkdave

    threelinkdave Well-Known Member

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    Being only a guard I was reluctant to comment as I apreciate the issues involved for loco crew. If everything has gone OK screw down lock up and home usually within 10 hours. For loco crew the hardest duty is Bridgnorth - Kidderminster light, work two round trips, Kidderminster - Bridgnorth light 96miles. The crew may well be releived at Bridgnorth for the run round to allow them to have a decent break.
    Steve - there is one area where a guard gets an interupted brake unless relieved by a shunter at Bridgnorth, its the platform swap. We try to run the last train from p1, station building side. The workings are not balanced so somewhere during the day one has to swap from p2 to p1. you run in p2 and wait for the train to depart p1 and clear the section signal. Propel the empty train out following the up train then back in p1. There is just enough room for 8 and a loco between down inner home bracket and up section. You then take your break. I prefer to do it myself as being a Kidder guard we dont get to shunt Bridgnorth that often so it keeps my competency up.
     
  14. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Part of the furniture

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    Agreed that there are some interesting points being are but my initial posting was how the hours spent on the heritage railway duties influenced / affected the hours / rest periods of heritage volunteers who also work full time on the national network with NR, FOCs or TOCs; there seems very little comment on this aspect.
     
  15. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Part of the furniture Staff Member Moderator

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    Presumably those who work on the national network are expected to ensure that they are properly rested during their time away from work. I would imagine that there is a degree of trust involved in the process and that time spent in safety critical duties on a heritage railway would not be considered as proper rest time.
     
  16. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Part of the furniture

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    That is my understanding but I wondered what checks are made to ensure that that trust is honoured.
     
  17. Tomnick

    Tomnick New Member

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    I've never known any checks be carried out, and my management are well aware that I carry out safety-critical duties on a heritage railway too. That said, the desire to remain in employment and out of prison is sufficient incentive for me (and, hopefully, others) to ensure that I'm well rested before I turn up at either establishment - something that would equally apply to someone who drove heritage buses in their spare time, or went rock climbing, or took part in endurance racing, I'm sure.

    A quick question - are individuals even responsible for ensuring their compliance with the Hidden recommendations, or is it purely for the guidance of rosters to avoid excessive fatigue over a period? Some situations that often arise from involvement with a heritage railway (say, a fairly short turn at work followed later in the day by another fairly short turn on the heritage railway, less than 12 hours in total but with a decent break between them meaning that the 'day' exceeds 12 hours) aren't really 'ok' under Hidden, but I'd feel much more comfortable doing that than a perfectly 'legal' 2200 - 1000 or 0200 - 1400 turn...!
     
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  18. aldfort

    aldfort Part of the furniture

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    On the WSR footplate turns can be up to 11 hours long during galas, usually with a break of up to 2 hours in the middle. The normal morning turn is about 7.5 hours, but turns from BL give very little time for a break particularly if arrival into MD is late. Being retired I don't have to worry about being well rested but on the flip side it takes 2 hours for me to get to BL to start work.
     
  19. Wenlock

    Wenlock Well-Known Member Friend

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    One complication for me, as a PSV driver, is that the hours permitted are different in the different modes. Domestic Drivers Hours regulations lay down different limits to those in hidden, and indeed limit actual driving hours daily as well as overall time on duty both daily and weekly.
     
  20. Ploughman

    Ploughman Well-Known Member

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    When I used to work for a Track Renewal firm before retiring.
    The Hours worked were booked as 12 hours door to door. So travel time was generally included in the shift.
    However most of our worksites were reachable, by me anyway, from York within an hour.
     

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