If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Liveries!

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by 61624, Jan 17, 2018.

  1. Richard Roper

    Richard Roper Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    905
    Likes Received:
    714
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Librarian
    Location:
    Halifax, but almost in Sowerby Bridge
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Well, I'm looking through my "Caledonian Railway Livery" book, and have, so far, found no reference whatsoever of a green livery being used. If I do come across anything I'll let you know! The Conner 8' 2" singles, and the Conner 2-4-0s were all blue apparently, and the first Conner singles appeared in 1869.

    Richard.
     
  2. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,594
    Likes Received:
    1,782
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I thought the blue didn't come in until Drummond? In which case the Connor (and Brittain) locos would have worn the blue livery later, but would have started life in another livery.
    This is from memory only!


    Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
     
    Richard Roper likes this.
  3. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    19,698
    Likes Received:
    34,792
    Location:
    215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Cripes, how old are you?

    Tom
     
    5944, Bluenosejohn, jnc and 4 others like this.
  4. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,594
    Likes Received:
    1,782
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Oh, I wish!
    What I wouldn't give for a time machine to go and see pre grouping glory days....

    Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
     
  5. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    10,559
    Likes Received:
    9,996
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, best job I've ever had
    Location:
    Buckinghamshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    No you don’t, you want a time machine to go back to last Friday having memorised the Euromillions winning numbers. You’d then have enough money to recreate the glory days now.
     
    RLinkinS, andrewshimmin and LMS2968 like this.
  6. Richard Roper

    Richard Roper Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    905
    Likes Received:
    714
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Librarian
    Location:
    Halifax, but almost in Sowerby Bridge
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer

    I've found the relevant chapter in my book...

    "Caledonian Railway Livery - The True Line Elegance and Style" - Jim MacIntosh, chapter 5, pp 227

    Early Locomotive Liveries 1845-1882

    The surviving record
    The earliest known contemporary reference regarding the livery of the locomotives is in the English Mechanic and World of Science, 14th. March 1879, which printed a letter giving a list of the colours of engines on various railways
    "Caledonian passenger engines: ultramarine, black and white lining, with the gilt Lion of Scotland; Mineral engines: olive green, black lines. The Caledonian blue looks very handsome, and is not so very expensive, ultramarine having great covering properties"

    ..None of the early specifications refer to maroon, crimson lake and / or chocolate, and all the official photographs of the locomotives of the early period show no evidence of a second colour. It is concluded, therefore, that Conner and Brittain Passenger engines were entirely ultramarine blue, perhaps even the smokebox and chimney in some cases [plates 3 & 5].

    Black Replaces Green
    Goods and Mineral engines were originally green - olive green according to the 1879 reference. J.F. McEwan wrote that the small Goods and Mineral engines were mid-Brunswick green and the large Goods engines were blue but he did not quote examples by class.
    The green colour was changed to black about 1876/7 by Brittain, shortly after he was appointed locomotive superintendent. The class "631" "Long Boiler" 0-6-0 engines were designated as green on the original specification but this was later changed to black...

    ...The earliest surviving specification for black is dated 1877 [see appendix 7.1]. The English Mechanic of 23rd. December 1881 confirms the chance in colour for the Goods engines:
    "Caledonian goods and mineral engines are black, picked out with red and white ... passenger, blue, broad black lines, picked out with white. Single engines have the Lion of Scotland in gilt and red on the splasher, coupled engines have it on the trailing wheel splasher."...

    Absorbed Scottish Central and Scottish North Eastern Railway Engines
    ... After numerous failed attempts, amalgamation finally took place in 1865, when the Caledonian absorbed the Scottish Central and gained a second workshop at Perth, as well as acquiring some ninety locomotives....
    ...The following year, 1866, the Scottish North Eastern Railway was also absorbed by the Caledonian, adding a further forty-four locomotives to the combined stock...
    ...It is assumed that, all the absorbed engines were repainted into the Caledonian livery at Perth [and, based on plates 22-25], showed a number of aspects in the lining and lettering which were different to the Caledonian style. Could this have been the origin of the myth that Perth and St Rollox liveries were different?


    The differences in the blue liveries over the years (ultramarine, Prussian Blue, Chinese Blue), plus those of the style of lettering, shadow and shading, etc. is fascinating reading - I'd heartily recommend this book to anyone with an interest in the Caley, it's a monumental work of in-depth investigation.

    "Caledonian Railway Livery - The True Line Elegance and Style", by Jim MacIntosh. Lightmoor Press and the Caledonian Railway Association, 2008.

    I was lucky enough to get hold of a secondhand as-new copy from the Vintage Carriages Trust shop at Ingrow, for £10.00 Cracking value!

    Richard.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2020
    240P15, jnc, Bluenosejohn and 2 others like this.
  7. Richard Roper

    Richard Roper Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    905
    Likes Received:
    714
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Librarian
    Location:
    Halifax, but almost in Sowerby Bridge
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Can I have some of what you're on, please?!

    Richard.
     
  8. bluetrain

    bluetrain Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2019
    Messages:
    497
    Likes Received:
    680
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Wiltshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Thanks very much for your detailed response. I can also thoroughly recommend the David Hamilton book that I'm currently reading to anyone who is interested in 19th Century locomotive history. My only criticism is that it doesn't have a page on liveries, and the text includes only passing mentions. So I look at the large number of vintage black and white photos and wonder about colour. In most of the early-period photos of Caley locos in-service, the colour looks fairly dark, unlike the sky-blue that we associate with the railway's later years. But I'm unsure whether that may at least partly reflect the limitations of early camera technology. A few official works photos appear much lighter, but may be showing "works photographic grey". From the latter, it can be seen that the chimney and smokebox were black for late-period Connor goods engines and for Brittain passenger engines. But as you suggest above, dark blue appears to include the chimney and smokebox on Connor passenger engines.

    While one can find much debate about the changing shades of blue, caused by adding varying amounts of lead white to the paint mix, no source seems to identify any colour other than blue for Caledonian passenger engines. That seems to confirm that the blue colour dates from the early years of the company, long before the Great Eastern and S&DJR began painting engines blue. Benjamin Connor had succeeded Robert Sinclair as Caley loco superintendent in 1856, the same year as St Rollox took over from Greenock at the company's main loco works. The first locos built at St Rollox were 2-4-0 goods of Sinclair's design, followed by batches to Connor design, then the first of Connor's 76-class 8-foot singles in 1859.

    Robert Sinclair moved from the Caledonian to the Eastern Counties, which became the Great Eastern in 1862. He is recorded by CJ Allen and the GER Society as having used pea green as his standard livery on the ECR/GER. After many subsequent changes of both loco superintendent and livery, Thomas Worsdell introduced GER blue in the 1880s.

    After Dugald Drummond arrived on the Caley in 1882, he seems to have introduced more elaborate lining and the large "C R" lettering on tenders. The term "Drummond livery" appears to refer to this detail change rather than to a new base colour.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2020
    jnc, Richard Roper and Jamessquared like this.
  9. Bill2

    Bill2 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2020
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    30
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Wilmslow
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Early photographic emulsions were sensitive to blue light but not to green and red, i.e. a blue locomotive would appear light while a red one would appear very dark. The position got a little better when orthochromatic emulsions came in which were sensitive to green light, better still with panchromatic emulsions.
     
  10. 240P15

    240P15 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2017
    Messages:
    1,318
    Likes Received:
    1,243
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Norway
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    andrewshimmin and Richard Roper like this.
  11. martin1656

    martin1656 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2014
    Messages:
    13,909
    Likes Received:
    8,334
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    St Leonards
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Richard Roper likes this.
  12. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    10,559
    Likes Received:
    9,996
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, best job I've ever had
    Location:
    Buckinghamshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
  13. Dunfanaghy Road

    Dunfanaghy Road Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2019
    Messages:
    393
    Likes Received:
    477
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Alton, Hants
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
  14. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    10,559
    Likes Received:
    9,996
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, best job I've ever had
    Location:
    Buckinghamshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    No not only in America!

    A3FFFA91-429C-4B7F-9BEF-415A682A6042.jpeg
     
  15. Dunfanaghy Road

    Dunfanaghy Road Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2019
    Messages:
    393
    Likes Received:
    477
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Alton, Hants
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    'Touché'.
    I can't find it in me to 'like' that, mind.
    Pat
     
  16. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    10,559
    Likes Received:
    9,996
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, best job I've ever had
    Location:
    Buckinghamshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    It did actually happen and I think Hornby did a limited edition model of it
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
  17. 46223

    46223 Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2011
    Messages:
    5,181
    Likes Received:
    3,352
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Lancs
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Yes, they did!

    ac.jpg
     
    andrewshimmin and Richard Roper like this.
  18. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    10,559
    Likes Received:
    9,996
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, best job I've ever had
    Location:
    Buckinghamshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
  19. 46223

    46223 Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2011
    Messages:
    5,181
    Likes Received:
    3,352
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Lancs
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    No! Just searched Google and found a photo. :)
     
    LMS2968, Johnb and Jamessquared like this.
  20. 240P15

    240P15 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2017
    Messages:
    1,318
    Likes Received:
    1,243
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Norway
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer

Share This Page