If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Liveries!

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by 61624, Jan 17, 2018.

  1. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    13,871
    Likes Received:
    15,909
    Location:
    21C102
    I think the suggestion was that the original horse shoe - upside down - signified bad luck, so the design was changed to a full circle. There's a photo of 21C3 with the full roundel on one of the pages linked below, so it may only have been the first couple of MNs that had the horseshoe. I'm pretty certain that none of the light pacifics ever had that emblem, but always had the full roundel. The filled-in section at the bottom was used to carry the build date.

    [​IMG]

    Source: http://www.semgonline.com/steam/mn_01.html

    [​IMG]

    Source: http://www.southern-locomotives.co.uk/Class_Details/Bulleid_Light_Pacifics.html

    (Incidentally, as this is a livery thread - interesting, and short-lived, hybrid livery - Southern malachite green, "BRITISH RAILWAYS" on the tender in sunshine lettering; "SOUTHERN" roundel on the smokebox front; hybrid SR / BR numbering scheme of s21C170 on cab side and front).

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2018
    30854, Dan Hill, Diamond Gaz and 3 others like this.
  2. Cartman

    Cartman Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    Messages:
    748
    Likes Received:
    487
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Did you like the experimental Apple green on a jubilee?
     
  3. Sir Nigel Gresley

    Sir Nigel Gresley Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2006
    Messages:
    870
    Likes Received:
    137
    Occupation:
    Retired Soldier of Fortune
    Location:
    Dorset
    Whilst, in the late '50's, the Midland region of BR panted their pacifics in a semblance of LMS livery, and several station pilots received versions of pre-grouping liveries (J72's at York & Newcastle, a J69 at Liverpool Street, and the Southampton Dock/SR works USA's) was any consideration given to painting the A4's in BR-ised Garter Blue?

    Indeed, the Top Shed staff referred to them as "Blue 'Uns" to the very end!
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2018
  4. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2014
    Messages:
    6,636
    Likes Received:
    2,579
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    31A
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    A few years ago Tony Streeter asked the same question in Steam Railway, he had a response from the late Andrew Dow along the lines of 'Eastern Region had better things to do'
     
  5. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    2,512
    Likes Received:
    1,630
    Occupation:
    computers
    Location:
    SE England
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    One imagines they were already painted the regional CMEs preferred colour...
     
  6. guycarr360

    guycarr360 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2005
    Messages:
    1,811
    Likes Received:
    525
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chester le Street County Durham
    This forum attracts people who make a remark, looking to score brownie points, with a smart alec comment, without a reasoned suggestion, who gives a flying about a smokebox plate, maybe a few photographers, it is not meant to be a mainline loco, something different for preservation.

    Another way to attract maybe a few more people to ride, something different a talking point.

    Now that is an intelligent argument, one you cannot see obviously, and that is were the pedantic comment came from.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
  7. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    8,481
    Likes Received:
    2,858
    Occupation:
    Gentleman of leisure, nowadays
    Location:
    Near Leeds
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Back in post 128 you said 'get over it' but it seems that you can't and just keep digging a deeper hole for yourself.
     
    GWR4707, Jamessquared, Johnb and 3 others like this.
  8. guycarr360

    guycarr360 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2005
    Messages:
    1,811
    Likes Received:
    525
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chester le Street County Durham
     
  9. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    2,684
    Likes Received:
    2,625
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Ooh .... Now there's a question. Who decided the 'corporate image'?

    There's a piece in Marsh's biography about the demise of Stroudley's ornate livery, stating the driving factor was (unsurprisingly) cost, but no indication of when and where the decision to change was made. Marsh certainly presented alternatives to the board - there's a photo of a Brighton loco sporting a large "L&B" on it's tanks, which was denigrated for it's apparent "Liver and Bacon" and "Circus" overtones. It seems too, that the board's choice was taken with costs very much to the fore.

    In the very earliest Southern days, the soon to depart Lawson Billinton point blank refused to waste remaining stocks of LBSC umber and quite a bit of kit (certainly locos, don't know about carriages) was turned out from in this colour post-grouping. I'm also in the dark about whether Southern identification was added to brown-painted locos at this time. Can anyone shed any light on this please?

    There's also an artwork, dating from Maunsell's reign, of a loco in at least four possible Southern liveries. I definitely recall umber, a rather odd orangy light ochre and a medium blue amongst these. Whether this originated from Maunsell's or Sir Herbert Walker's offices I know not. If anyone has this image, any chance of posting it ..... pretty please?
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
  10. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2006
    Messages:
    1,935
    Likes Received:
    1,523
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Lecturer retired: Archivist of Stanier Mogul Fund
    Location:
    Wigan
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I remember reading that Mr Bulleid sent a sample of his new locomotive colour to the Southern Railway's directors for their approval. They were not averse , but thought it a bit too striking and asked him to tone it down by 'a couple of shades'. Bulleid went ahead with his original colour, and on being asked about it, said, "I don't know how much a 'shade' is!"
     
  11. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    2,512
    Likes Received:
    1,630
    Occupation:
    computers
    Location:
    SE England
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    No doubt it depended on to what extent the board was prone to "livery froth".
    I just skimmed through Sir Felix Pole's (GWR general manager from 1921) book, and although he was greatly concerned with matters of image and PR, I spotted no mention of liveries. The change back to choc and cream on the GW coaches seems to have been decided in 1921,. Minutes extracts in GWWay suggest that Loco Carriage and Stores Cttee made recommendations to board based on a report from the CME, but that doesn't tell us where the proposal originated.
     
    30854 likes this.
  12. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    2,684
    Likes Received:
    2,625
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I think I recall reading somewhere that even the uber-standardised GWR loco's were identifiable as being painted at Wolverhampton or Swindon, according to how they were lined out.... or did I imagine that?

    IIRC, the early LNWR's Northern and Southern Divisions each had their own ideas about livery at one time have. The GNRI certainly did during it's first couple of years as an amalgamated concern.

    When you consider what 'yer average passenger' notices about a companies' trains, as long as they're on time, it's rather odd there's so little information about who actually chose the liveries on so many lines. Mind you, I reckon we more than make up for that on here! ;)
     
  13. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    5,068
    Likes Received:
    4,156
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheltenham, or Sheffield
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Haven't come across that, although I have an equally vague idea that the shades of green were slightly different?
     
  14. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    13,871
    Likes Received:
    15,909
    Location:
    21C102
    There's a different anecdote related in CF Klapper's biography of Sir Herbert Walker (Southern Railway GM), the source being one of Maunsell's staff.

    Supposedly, in 1936 Walker, Maunsell, Edwin Cox (Traffic Manager) and Frank Bushrod (Operating Superintendent) travelled to the Isle of Wight to see at first hand the difficulties the hoteliers on the Island were experiencing during the depression. All the way to Portsmouth, across on the ferry and by train to Sandown a triangular conversation took place between Cox, Maunsell and Bushrod as to the effect of rolling stock colour on passenger bookings. Cox wanted a lovely green with golden lining; Bushrod thought green all over could be attractive; Maunsell wanted dark unlined grey.

    Walker took no part, but pondered matters internally. After observing the hoteliers plight at first hand, and paying for lunch, he went across to an optician's shop in Sandown, where reels of spectacle cord were on display in the window. He rushed in, emerged with a length of green cord, and cut a length for each of his chief officers, saving a piece for himself. "Now, argument shall cease: that will be the colour Southern engines and coaches shall be painted in future. This reel shall remain in my office safe as the standard to which reference shall be made".

    When Bulleid became responsible, the choice of malachite green had thus been made inevitable by a general manager who had retired a fortnight before Bulleid's appointment begun!

    (It is possible of course that both anecdotes are true; Walker choosing the basic colour but the interpretation of that between reference reel of cord and paint shop mixture being as related by @LMS2968)

    Tom
     
  15. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2016
    Messages:
    5,504
    Likes Received:
    2,313
    Occupation:
    Layabout
    Location:
    Your nightmares
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    It's probably the same as a 'JND' - a Just Noticeable Difference. Which certainly exists in the world of broadcast engineering.
     
  16. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Messages:
    26,713
    Likes Received:
    9,487
    Occupation:
    Training moles
    Location:
    The back of beyond
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Doncaster and Darlington had different ideas on loco painting through to BR days.
     
    30854 likes this.
  17. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    13,871
    Likes Received:
    15,909
    Location:
    21C102
    It's an interesting question. On the Southern at least (and its constituents before), locomotive and carriage liveries was a question for the CME (or Locomotive Superintendent, in earlier parlance). Periodically a change would be proposed by the CME to the board for approval, but almost invariably, the parameters would be around cost - i.e. a new livery would be cheaper to apply, or more hard wearing, or both. The anecdote I quoted above from 1936 is one of the earliest examples I can find in which the effect of livery on public perception seems to have been explicitly considered. Of course, by 1936 railways were subject to competition for passengers in a way that they generally hadn't been before , so such perception was presumably becoming of more importance.

    As for Southern liveries: when the SR formed, to start with there were more important things to consider - in the case of the CME's department, Maunsell had to consider building his team, a survey of the works, the pressing problem of meeting the predicted summer traffic in 1924 which required more front line express locos; and looking at the complex pattern of lines to Kent for the heavy boat trains to work out how which locos could run on which routes. So livery was some way down the priority list.

    Accordingly, it appears that the three workshops continued to paint locos in pre-grouping liveries until about November 1923, at which point a new SR livery came in, essentially the then LSWR sage green livery but with "Southern" on the tender, and some minor variation to lining. (This was later changed to a darker shade starting in February 1925). As an example, there is photo in Bradley of a pristine condition T9 at Eastleigh in full LSWR livery, carrying superheated boiler which it received in May 1923. So I suspect that the answer to your question about Marsh umber locos with Southern identification is probably no; in 1923 they were probably still being painted in umber with "LBSC" on the sides; after that date they would be in SR green with "Southern" on the sides.

    Holcroft recounts (Locomotive Adventure, pt I, page 121) that rolling stock liveries were inspected by the Directors on April 9th 1924. Five carriages were prepared at Ashford, as follows:

    - Dark blue with gold lettering, lined out in white, yellow and red
    - Brown with yellow lines and gold letters, "Southern Rly" above the windows
    - LSWR green
    - LBSCR dark umber
    - SE&CR Chestnut

    Apparently the choice of blue was Maunsell's personal choice, and the carriage did enter traffic painted that way; however, the LSWR green livery was settled on.

    Pre-grouping liveries obviously continued for some time. Roughly three years between repaints for most engines was fairly typical, so there would have been plenty of pre-grouping liveries around certainly into the mid to late 1920s, though decreasing numbers beyond that. I put a picture on another thread of a Brighton E4 still in LBSC livery in 1930; the last example I am aware of is an LBSCR Terrier (current No. 54 "Waddon") still sporting SE&CR livery in September 1932. It had been sold to the SE&CR and for the last few years had been essentially a mobile steam supply for the Eastbourne pulverised coal trials. At least one T9 (No. 773) was superheated in 1925 but, with the work being fairly minor and the paint still in good condition, was returned to traffic in full LSWR livery in March 1925.

    Locos in SR livery but retaining cast metal SE&CR identification plaques on the cab side seems to have been quite common - interesting since, unlike on older Brighton and South Western locos, the cast plaque didn't include the number, so there was seemingly less resistance to removing it.

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
    John Baritone and 30854 like this.
  18. Hunslet589

    Hunslet589 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    28
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Oxfordshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    For some years in the mid- Victorian period the GWR largely operated as two seperate railways. Swindon looked after the broad gauge under the management of Joseph Armstrong and the more northern ‘narrow’ gauge was managed by Joseph’s brother George at Wolverhampton. As a result Wolverhampton had a high degree of independence and the livery differed significantly from that at Swindon. The main colour is described as a ‘deep blue-green’ and details are not surprisingly rather sparse. The lining also differed with black/White replacing Swindon’s black/orange.

    Swindon began to impose more control as George approached retirement and the last use of the independent livery is reported to have been in the mid-1890s.
     
  19. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    2,512
    Likes Received:
    1,630
    Occupation:
    computers
    Location:
    SE England
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    It depends on the date. In the mid 19thC Swindon (broad gauge) and Wolverhampton (narrow gauge) were pretty much independent operations with their own design policies. Once Swindon was narrow gauge as well Swindon was the nominal superior, but Joseph Armstrong (CME Swindon) didn't really exercise much authority over his younger brother George Armstrong (CME Wolverhampton) and the two were still largely independent. When Dean was appointed as CME, promoted from assistant CME at Swindon, it was effectively over the head of George Armstrong, and Dean never seems to have attempted to give Armstrong orders which probably wouldn't have been followed. After George Armstrong retired in 1897 the independence of Wolverhampton rapidly diminished, and by the time Churchward was officially appointed as CME in 1902 it was pretty much gone.
     
    Jamessquared likes this.
  20. Cartman

    Cartman Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    Messages:
    748
    Likes Received:
    487
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I think the Southern made the right choice, I thought the sage/olive green with the numbers on the tender or tank sides was smart. I preferred it to the later malachite green
     

Share This Page