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Liveries!

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by 61624, Jan 17, 2018.

  1. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

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    Thanks to the posts from @Hunslet589 and @Jimc it would appear neither of us have gone off our rockers! :)
     
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  2. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

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    If I'm recalling the shade correctly, the blue suggested by Maunsell would've looked pretty OK in my books, though I've never seen the suggested scheme for passenger stock.

    Anyhow, IMO, malachite suited Bulleid's kit well enough, but I'd agree the Maunsell livery looked way better on pre-grouping locos and panelled stock. Oddly, I reckon Maunsell's own output looks equally good finished in either - and if the one photo I've seen is anything to judge by, his mogul looked pretty damned good in fully lined MGWR finery - even if the solitary loco so finished never entered service before being terminally dipped in the GSR's wonderfully imaginitive "Inchicore Grey".
     
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  3. John Baritone

    John Baritone New Member

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    There seems a common theme running through here - on the lines of intention being one thing, but practise often veering off in a rather different direction.

    IIRC, I read some time back about the Caledonian Blue originally being quite a dark Prussian Blue, as used on the Great Eastern and Somerset & Dorset. According to the writer, as the Caley was perennially short of cash - and Prussian Blue was expensive - the paint shops were only issued with limited quantities. This meant that the works were at times hard pressed to keep the locos looking smart - until one bright spark twigged that as standard gloss white was 'free issue', they could mix it with what Prussian Blue they did have, giving them much larger quantities of paint to use on the locos. Over the course of time, the rate of 'dilution' gradually increased until the original Prussian Blue ended up as the glorious Caley Sky Blue that we all know!

    But I must leave the last word to a pragmatist I met in my early days on preserved railways, a marketing man for one line who achieved a great deal of good publicity on his extremely shoe-string budget:

    "What's the real purpose of railway 'liveries'? To stop the engines going rusty!"
    :D

    But don't shoot me, guv - I'm only the messenger boy!!
     
  4. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Well-Known Member

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    The engineer that I am says that surface coatings, which is what paint is, is there only to protect the material below. The realist says that it is that it's the first thing the observers sees, and what is the most important impression?
     
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  5. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    As far as the vast majority of visitors to heritage railways are concerned, I’d say livery of the loco is what will make an impression.
     
  6. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

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    Are we perchance teetering on saying paint might just serve two unrelated purposes? :Wideyed:
     
  7. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Well-Known Member

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    That is the case. Paint is there to protect the metal below. this is the engineer's view, but also to present a pleasant appearance, the marketing view. The Victorians recognised this and came up with some very elaborate schemes, although later and more utilitarian times simplified these.
     
  8. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    We could add a third, employee morale/pride in the job.
     
  9. Tim Light

    Tim Light Active Member

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    Paint is important but colour is obviously not. I know this because the recent documentary on the NYMR frequently substituted a black 44806 for green 46100, and also failed to distinguish between a green class 101 and a blue/yellow class 26. If the experts making this documentary are unable to make these subtle distinctions then who are we to nit-pick?
     
  10. Cartman

    Cartman Active Member

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    Yes I noticed too! A standard class 4 tank also got inclusion at one point. Some nice shots of 46100 though
     
  11. Cartman

    Cartman Active Member

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    I thought some of the Victorian schemes were a bit over ornate in my view. The LNWR and L & Y got it right!
     
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  12. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

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    Agreed .... although, over the water, the GSR rather overdid the 'utilitarian simplification' thing in the eyes of just about everyone outside the finance department! Until the advent of the 800's in 1939 and the odd splash of randomly applied green in CIÉ days, there was nowt to relieve the monotony.

    Come to think of it ..... has anyone complained about ex-DSER Mogul No.461 sporting it's attractive, but decidedly unprototypical CIÉ lined green livery? Dunno 'bout y'all, but I certainly won't be agitating for a return to authentic grey any time soon!

    The GNRI lines were another story entirely of course. :)

    While agreeing with the morale point raised by @Jimc .... I'm unsure it'd convince a hard bitten accountant!
     
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  13. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    You’d like the LCDR then - lots to admire in their locomotive practice, but they also painted their locos in a fashion that would presumably have passed muster in Crewe or Horwich!

    Tom
     
  14. guycarr360

    guycarr360 Well-Known Member

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    That is a really unfair remark, if you had access to the NYMR forum, where the crew who made the 3 programs posted, they said, it was done with 2 camera's only, and apologised if any continuity or shot errors came in.

    It was aimed at the general public, to increase exposure of the NYMR, something it has already done in spades.

    I can post the text if you want, the replies were all in support, nobody criticised, they see the benefit from the program.
     
  15. Spinner

    Spinner New Member

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    In this place and others of a similar ilk, I'd say that there's a fourth purpose in paint. It gives a disparate group of people something to fulminate over.
     
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  16. Cartman

    Cartman Active Member

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    What colour were their locos?
     
  17. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Black! (Set off with lining in pale blue and white).

    Tom
     
  18. John Baritone

    John Baritone New Member

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    I agree - but you only have to wander along the platform of any preserved line, listening to people talking, to realise that 90% of our passengers wouldn't notice the difference if you took an engine up the line with a J94, and brought it back with a Standard 4 tank, as long as they were both painted black!

    They will certainly notice smart or scruffy - but listen to passengers comments on the East Lancs about the Crab, painted in a completely unauthentic Crimson Lake. Do they know that Crabs never carried that colour in service? Nope. If you told them, would they care? Nope. Do the crews feel ashamed that the colour isn't authentic? If so, they keep very quiet about it.

    I've certainly heard a few critical remarks from gricers - but the reality is that gricers form a very small part of any line's income. Look at any railway's end of year accounts, and you'll find that the Santa Specials alone make a massive contribution to the annual income - and neither the parents nor their children give a damn about "Shouldn't it be Sage Green, not Malachite Green?", or "Shouldn't that grey lining be three-eighths of an inch wide, not a quarter of an inch?"

    If it looks smart and well cared for, the lion's share of our customers will be happy - and that will go a long way towards ensuring long term regular income.
     
  19. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Part of the furniture

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    I thought the first 100 crabs *were* red? So not *that* inauthentic.
     
  20. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Well-Known Member

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    Erm, it is authentic. The first 100 Crabs, and this is one of them, were painted in LMS crimson lake, and at first were extensively used on express workings. With the possible exception of some details inside the cab, of which I'm not entirely certain, the livery is fully authentic for this loco
     

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