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LMS 2P 4-4-0

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by joshs, Dec 30, 2012.

  1. joshs

    joshs New Member

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    Hi just a general question, What would be the General consensus be on a New build LMS 2P 4-4-0.

    As the tender was a standard Fowler 3,500 Gallon, so the drawings are easy to get for that, the Boiler was a standard G7S, as this is the same type as the LMS 4F, the drawings are accesable. Also the driving wheels are the same as the new build patriot so the castings and drawings exsist and the leading bogie wheels were identical to the Crabs so this would help making new ones and there are enough drawings at NRM of the 2P that CAD drawings could be made of any missing parts.

    So what would be the General consensus on a new Build LMS 2P 4-4-0

    Regards Josh
     
  2. John Stewart

    John Stewart Part of the furniture

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    Very simple and reliable machines with the lowest maintenance cost of any LMS type. However, one would not be much use in modern conditions in terms of haulage capacity. It would be better to go for the specification of the Deeley 990 class, which are hard to tell at first glance from a 2P, but were rated a 4P like the compounds.
     
  3. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    plenty of support for this from S&DJR fans I imagine
     
  4. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Resident of Nat Pres Account Suspended

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    There's so many possible new builds where do you start...the Ian Allan 1944 abc, the hornby catalog, the derby works archive..

    All are viable or suitable or historical of sorts
    the problem with infinite new build schemes is the spreading of the available cash so thin that none gets built.

    The ones that are succeeding are:
    1. Very popular type "must have"
    2. An established base and local crew
    3. A funding process

    its item 1 that's driving the bigger ones right now as it makes 2 and 3 more successful... I think the most popular ones already have a project in existence, which means the next best thing is a "should have"..which introduces a fourth option..

    4. Practical and potential to earn revenue

    these needn't be popular, but middle of the road, but advance financing will need to be more business driven with a viable pay back plan to succeed..so far none of "should have"'s have even gotten past the idea stage and without a rich or business sponsor will get any further as there's little chance any more new unstarted build schemes will get enough donations until some of the current ones have finished.

    if more people wanted an LMS2P than a Patriot.. Then this thread would be asking for a Patriot as the 2P project would have already started.. With its same Fowler tender.
     
  5. mickpop

    mickpop Part of the furniture

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    The 'new build' issue recurs with monotonous regularity and the same arguments get rehearsed. I think ADB has nailed it concisely in his post. The 'practical and potential to earn' is particularly apposite in the case of the 2Ps. 4-4-0s are not a very practical proposition for mainline use [Schools apart] but are very popular on the longer preserved lines where I find Pacific often look out of place trundling along at 25mph.

    The 2Ps were never a very glamorous, aesthetically pleasing nor efficient locos but I liked them, possibly as they were just about finished when I became an enthusiast and their rarity added appeal. However I seem to recall someone recently wanting to build a Fowler 2-6-2 tank, arguably one of the least effective designs so somebody loves them in spite of that! Common sense says we should finish more relevant and useful designs already in some state of existence before trying to fill other gaps - thus the Patriot, Brighton Atlantic, Saint and B17 need to be a priority. A 2P, in my wish list, would compete with an L1 [the 4-4-0 one], a NB Scott, a Bulldog and maybe a GC 4-6-0 or Atlantic, but I doubt i will live long enough to see that wish fulfilled!
     
  6. shedbasher

    shedbasher Member

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    The 2p and 4ps were on regular passenger on the midland I would rather see the compound we do have back on the mainline double headed with a scot or a jubilee
     
  7. MarkinDurham

    MarkinDurham Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely, shedbasher. And perhaps she might manage a trip over the S&C with a Jube in conditions other than a blizzard! :D

    Mark
     
  8. Rumpole

    Rumpole Well-Known Member

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    Wasn't there a proposal about 10-15 years ago for one of these, which didn't progress due to lack of firm support? I'm sure I recall reading something about it.
     
  9. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

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    The lms patriot project has spare parts for a Fowler tender. But if you were to get the patriot finished first then there are a lot of members interested in either a Fowler tank (2-6-4) and a 2p. So it could be the lms patriot projects version of tornado doing the p2
     
  10. daveannjon

    daveannjon Active Member

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    The group that bought the Midland 1F 'Half-Cab' 0-6-0T in the 1960s were offered a 2P for £1200 but it was considered too expensive and anyway who would want such a big loco and where would you put it? All true at the time of course. If only...

    Dave
     
  11. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Part of the furniture

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    The option for a 2P 4-4-0 has raised an interesting dichotemy that is also being faced by the owners of 34092 - what value main line running ?

    The 2P is being criticised for its main line problems BUT if the proposal is for use on heritage lines only albeit with the capability of being towed between heritage lines it could be a viable proposal. As a dedicated heritage line loco it offers size to appeal to visitors, offers economy in operation to keep costs low, it offers simplicity in design thus keeping maintenance costs down and it should comfortably handle up to 6 MkI coaches at heritage line speeds (25 mph) with little difficulty. In that context I'm sure a 40483 specification 4-4-0 would prove a valued and valuable asset.

    At the other end of the scale the return of 34092 appears to be causing problems in that the loco needs to generate income to fund its next overhaul BUT the problem is that whilst the highest income is from main line running the costs of main line running may dissipate the income too much. On the other hand, whilst the income / mileage rates available from heritage line operation is low it comes without the cost of main line equipment such as OTMR or the maintenance needs of high speed main line operation; admittedly it may be too big for many heritage lines hence there may be a restriction on the number of lines where it can operate.

    Whilst acknowledging the right of owners to buy and operate their locomotives it may be time to consider where locomotives could / should operate and devise a form of route classification based on engine size. As an extreme example seeing the regular operation of 71000 Duke of Gloucester is appropriate for both main lines and heritage lines of a certain length but absolutely wasteful on a line such as John Jolly's Mangapps Farm; similarly the operation of Ivatt 41241 on short branch lines is appropriate but on lengthier lines may cause problems. Here one must commend the SVR whose method of operating through Kidderminster - Bridgnorth services favours the larger locomotives whilst the operation of shorter services such as Bridgnorth - Hampton Loade; Highley - Arley; Arley - Bewdley / Kidderminster and Bewdley - Kidderminster / Arley favours the smaller branch line locomotives. In a similar vein one commends the Swanage Railway which happily operates Class 4 motive power but has the availability of Bulleid Pacifics to denote the fact that they were (1) regular motive power during BR days and (2) were designed by Bulleid to be a standard type to cover branch line work as well as main line duties and even commend the KESR which operates a truly rural line where the fleet of Terriers is always an attraction in itself.

    Many of these decisions will be made by owners as they try to control their costs in efforts to fund future overhauls but is it not about time that heritage lines accepted their limitations and attracted the type of locomotives that best suit their methods of operations. Assuming that the majority of customers at heritage lines simply want to sample steam traction and have an opportunity to spend time around the locomotive(s) at work I would suggest that - to them - it will not matter which locomotives are working and therefore the lines can operate a programme of events that will best suit the lines nature.

    Is 2013 the year in which owners of locomotives and operators of heritage lines might re-assess their operations and - perhaps - create an environment in which biggest might NOT be best and lines might become more a part of their locale by reflecting the rural nature of their catchment area.
     
  12. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Resident of Nat Pres Account Suspended

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    34092 is a different animal (and subject) to a 2P.. but a 4 mile branch with 5 stations/loops like KWVR I think is hardly suitable for either.
    How different really would 34092 be on the mainline from 34067 ?.. a few years back we had 60009 and 60019 in green.. it was fun for a few weeks, but there's no escaping 4464 in Blue is a bigger attraction to the public, perhaps 34067 could be due to become a celebrity in it's own right and become 21C67 after all there is a southern revival going on right now with 777,850 and 925 ?

    The mainline is currently the preserve of class 7s and 8s.. (with only a couple of Black5s and a few others in the Class 5/6 category still left largely to fill a comfortable niche in Scotland)
    The days of Class 2,3,4 variety on the mainline seem to over, as does heavy 6/7/8/9F freight (only 48151 remains and is restricted use) as for anything pre-grouping like we had in the 70s/80s. forget it.
    After that there's novelties.. three Panniers and a Railmotor.

    It's a shame as theres more variety of steam classes now on the mainline in Germany than there is here... still you can see small tank engines, very small, to very large, heavy freight, mixed traffic even a replica 1830's loco on the mainline.. today... it's still an open door there... in fact I would say it's probably easier to take an Ivatt 2-6-0 or a 9F from the UK to Germany or further east and run it there !.. after all a GW Prarie has been at high speed on the mainline in the 21st century... just not on this island we live on.

    The UK used to be very good at it look whats been lost to the mainline since it began.. engines like Lion, Rocket, 58926, 673, Maude, 1247, Hardwicke or even more recent losses like 7325, various Manors, 76079,80080, Ivatt 2mt, southern mogul etc..

    Preserved Diesels is even worse.. in 2012 what preserved diesels actually ran ? .. Preserved Diesels are much more prolific in Europe than the UK.
     
  13. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    To be fair, that is basically the argument that I (and some others) have been advancing for some time; for example in the Bluebell Motive Power thread, when noting that basically we need class 2 - 4 locos to run our service. A class 5 is a luxury and nothing bigger is needed on operational grounds - and bear in mind, the locomotive work at the Bluebell, while not quite the hardest in the country, is definitely at the harder end of the spectrum in terms of the combination of gradient, length and load.

    Of course, to set against that desire is the fact that basically all preserved lines are competing for motive power within an available pool which, for the work on offer, has a disproportionate number of "big" locos (class 6 or above) and not enough "small" (< class 2) or "medium" (class 2 - 5) locos. So it is inevitable that some lines will end up using locos that, on pure operational grounds, are too big.

    Tom
     
  14. paulhitch

    paulhitch Part of the furniture

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    +1 (with bells on!)

    PH
     
  15. 17B

    17B New Member

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    Personally I think a 2P would make a very nice new build project, but then being from the locality and having a regional bias to Derby metal i going to think that! My preference would be for the earlier Midland version with the 7' 1/2" drivers and a Johnson tender for a bit of variety.

    I'd of thought this would make a practical, economical end relatively easy to maintain locomotive for preserved railways. As said above it's not a main liner, but as we already have plenty of new build 4-6-2's, 4-6-0's and 2-8-2's in planning/under construction that market is well catered for. I certainly find the smaller more mumble engines much more interesting and would certainly support such a project. Gav's comment that it could follow on from the Patriot would certainly make sense, and with that and a potential Fowler tank on the horizon all i need is to save up for a 2 or 3F and i'd be in Derby Heaven. Although I'm sure i ready somewhere a group at the KWVR were looking at making a 3F from a Jinty chassis but never heard anything more about it. I'll keep dreaming!

    Happy New Year Everybody.
     
  16. paulhitch

    paulhitch Part of the furniture

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    Remember this would be for 25mph running! The later 6ft.9ins LMS type would be almost as bad for being unduly high in the wheel.

    If it must be a Midland 4-4-0 let it be one of the smaller wheeled types built for the S&D.Should that be thought too obscure then a 2F or 3F 0-6-0 would at least be practical.

    Nevertheless, as would be expected from me, my message is "In the name of Henry get something finished before starting yet another project"!

    PH
     
  17. houghtonga

    houghtonga Member

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    I agree with Paul,

    I also question if there is a preservation gap to be filled here - the NCC U2 4-4-0s had the smaller 6ft 0in driving wheel too and were much improved with Walcheats rather than Stephensons valve gear and a lighter axle load.

    NCC #74 "Dunlace Castle" is preserved in Northern Ireland and if it was practical to restore her to working order (I am not sure what the RPSI found when they investigated doing so few years ago) I suspect this 4-4-0 would see a lot more action of the 5ft 3in mainline than a similar loco would in England, Wales & Scotland.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/5891241543/
    (not my picture)

    Gareth
     
  18. John Stewart

    John Stewart Part of the furniture

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    Well, my 990 suggestion is at least moving the right way as it had 6ft 6.5in drivers. As for a 2F, I often saw 58216, the last Johnson round-top firebox survivor; I don't think that it ever reached 25mph!
     
  19. ssk2400

    ssk2400 New Member

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    i had a smoke box number plate of the 2p scrapped at wards at barrow in furness , i was in a garden lieing in the grass , i later sold it for £4 to a local second hand dealer sometime in the mids 70 s !!!!
     
  20. collet1930

    collet1930 New Member

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    Totally agree about a 2P, one of my favorite S&D engines would look nice with 3/4 on going towards chillcompton cutting,but alas will proberbly never happen in my life time.So many engines coming back to us with new tickets and we don't seem to have the line capacity to run them. Engines need to run to finance their overhauls, we all know that but most only ever run at 25 mph for a 30 minute journey. If only Mr Hoskins had been around 20 years ago and instead of buying engines had bought the 72 mile Settle and Carlisle line when british rail thought it was not worth the trouble in saving. It could have become the largest preservation project of all time.Pehaps special rules for running engines at decent speeds and not wearing out at 15-25 mph.Just a though or was it a dream.
     

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