LMS design Sleeper for scrap

Hello,
Swindon & Cricklade are soon going to scrap

http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=14


Nick

 

Do they have a guide price?

73101

 

Rule of thumb.
Weight times current scrap steel price.

 

I think the decline in prices is due to the slump in demand for metals world wide. This in turn has caused problems for the UK steel market rather than the problems in the steel industry causing issues for scrap prices. Although there may be a further trend downwards as the steel problems kick in.

 

Asbestos insulated no doubt?

 

Nearly all of the old sleeping coaches that were purchased in the 70s and 80s and were ex LMS or BR Mk1 design and would have had fairly minimal maintenance save a daub of paint (usually one the side that the punters can see). Consequently a lot of them will be in a terrible state after years of water penetration (and possibly all kinds of penetration..). And yes, they were lined with asbestos on pipes and air ducts.

I had a compartment in the LMS one at Horsted Keynes for most of the ninties and it was seriously starting to show its age then with corrosion in the cladding, doors starting to stick and wiring becoming degraded and unreliable. What it must be like now is anyones guess but she is still there.

Unfortunately the old sleepers were bought cheap and used for the purpose they were designed for and that was resting bodies. To repair one properly would require asbsestos stripping, recladding and major structural reapirs and that isn't going to happpen (the GWR one on the WSR being the very notable exception). It gets to a point when bodging with denzo tape and paint doesnt work anymore! Most if not very nearly all sleeping coaches on preserved lines are not presereved in any sense and will end up getting shredded when they finally become a health hazard too far.

 

Most sleeper coaches on heritage railways are only there to provide sleeping accommodation for volunteers staying the night. I don't know a single sleeping coach that people travel or stay in on heritage railways. One GWR sleeper was restored on the WSR.


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I see the Bluebell has 4 post 1948 sleepers listed on the VCT site with 2 at risk of been scrapped including the last SLC one.

The list of the post 1948 ones on the VCT site are.

---------------- Scrapped---------- At Risk -------- Safe? -------- Unsafe ?
BR
SLC ------------- -------------------- 1
SLSTP ------------ 12 ------------ ----------------- 1 --------------- 1
SF --------------- 1 --------------- 1 ---------------- 1 ------------ 2

LNER ----------------- 5

LMS
First ---------------- 1 ------------------ 1 --------------------- 2----------------------- 2
Third --------------- 2 ---------------- 1 --------------------- 4

GWR ----------------------------------------- ------------------- 3 --------------------------- 1

 

Hello,
Holiday lets?



Nick

 

Like these but most have more history to them http://www.railholiday.co.uk/

 

Holiday lets? Are you sure? Have you ever stayed in one? 2 single very narrow bunkbeds, no storage space or anywhere to sit, eat or move. 2 toilet compartments for per vehicle. freezing cold in winter and roasting in summer. Don't think even a migrant from the Jungle would stay in there!

Also, most of these vehicles from what I have seen are in terrible condition and would require years of work and a huge amount of cash to get to a point where you could consider them stable and preserved. I remember the odd joker coming round the carriage shed at Horsted demanding 'we' do something about the sleeping coaches (or similar vegatating wreck). An offer of overalls or address to send the cheque would invariably be met with the usual blarney about a bad back, live too far away, can't afford it etc. At which point the conversation was terminated

 

Ok...let's think about this logically. Let's assume that if you want to preserve a sleeping car in its original form, the only way to do so is as a museum exhibit. How many are already preserved?

From the pre-grouping era, we have the beautiful GWR 9038 at the WSR, plus WCJS 102 and LNWR 112 at Quainton (albeit the former is preserved in its later form as an inspection coach, and the latter has been internally restored to its later condition as a cinema coach). (There is also this lovely-looking ECJS sleeper under restoration, but not sure who owns it or what their long-term plans are for it? http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=2453)

From the grouping era, the NRM has a 1928 LMS third (14241), a section of an LNER articulated 3rd (1186), and CIWL 3792. Apparently the SRPS has plans to restore LNER first 1211 for the Scottish Railway Museum (http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=933), and there are two ex-Eisenhower command train LNER firsts on display at Green Bay with 60008.

So British sleeping coaches are not faring as badly as one might think. That's at least eight (and a bit) that appear to have a secure future. The question then is: if we want to preserve more, what should our priorities be?

Personally, I think the top priority should be a 12-wheel LMS-design sleeper, due to the general rarity of 12-wheel coaches. Next on the list should be a BR Mk. 1 sleeper of some description. Finally, a modern GWR-designed sleeper would also be good, and I think 9083 at Didcot would be a good candidate; unlike so many sleepers she is at least stored undercover, which should help to keep her in reasonable condition.

Oh, and finally, this caught my eye on the VCT site. I know we already have two LNWR sleepers on the list, but its role as part of General Haig's command train in WWI gives it a special significance. http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=2557

Let's be realistic here: it would be very difficult to preserve a comprehensive selection of British sleeping cars because, unlike locomotives or passenger coaches, they cannot "sing for their supper" by working on preserved railways. But if we can ensure a secure future for all the vehicles listed above, then I suggest that we will have a good representative selection of sleeping cars to pass on to future generations. Anything else which just happens to survive - whether as volunteer accommodation on preserved lines, or in any other use - is a bonus.

Shall I start the Facebook group, then?

 

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There are two restored Hawksworth sleepers on the SVR, used for volunteers accommodation at Kidderminster and Arley. Pretty sure at least the one at kiddy is a 12 wheel example too.

 

All 4 of the BRW built ones are on 6w bogies, and they are the only Hawksworth coaches to have the 6w bogies.

 

I hope that any sleeping coaches that are disposed of are raided for parts for other LMS/GWR/LNER carriages, there are probably common parts to passenger stock. The underframes alone may match some grounded bodies so may have some future heritage value.

I must say that the two LMS ones at Horsted Keynes being in a high profile location does let the Railway Down presentation wise, however the GWR Sleeper at Kidderminster is a joy often noticed by the general public.

They do have a important place in Rail history, but probably as static exhibits in locations like the SVR (engine house), Didcot, NRM, and Butterley to name a few. A preserved Mk 1 is a absolute must (NRM maybe).

 

Enthusiasts, maybe. However, Joe Public make up the vast majority of visitors to preserved railways, and I suspect that they would much rather travel on proper seats, rather than perching on the edge of a bed. I expect capacity would also be much lower than conventional coaching stock, which would make them unattractive from an operating point of view.

As for galas, I can see what you're saying but AFAIK only the SVR makes a regular feature of night running at galas at present. Any increased revenue from the use of sleeping coaches would have to be offset against the extra costs of keeping a loco in steam; plus you would need to find volunteers to keep the train and the station staffed all night, which is a big ask. Keeping the coaches cleaned and maintained on top of the normal coaches would also take up time, labour and resources.

Really, if offering accommodation to the public is going to be worth a railway's while, you need to make it a year-round offer. The NYMR have done that with their camping coach, but I understand that the interior has been modernised and remodeled to make it more attractive, so it doesn't help to preserve a sleeping car in its original form.

Hence the view I argued above: that if you want to truly, authentically preserve a sleeping car, the only viable way to do so is as a museum exhibit.

 

The LNERCA has convertible sleeper third 1299 awaiting restoration. After many years use as a messroom (both on BR and o the NYMR) it retains quite a lot of its original interior and is the LNER equivalent of the NRM's 14241. Once it is restored people will be able to travel in it in ordinary passenger service, but it will have the sleeper fittings restoreds. Perhaps its completion could herald all-night services on the NYMR!

 

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