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LMS Hughes Crab 42859

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by SpudUk, Mar 31, 2009.

  1. Jkelsh

    Jkelsh New Member

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    Is there anybody that can 100% confirm what's left of 42859? Especially would be interested in seeing pictures of what remains right now today
     
  2. 43729

    43729 New Member

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    I went to binbrook. I went to lincs wolds. I went to the scrapyards. There is nothing to photograph.

    Dead crab. Past tense. Gone.
     
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  3. D6332found

    D6332found New Member

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    Hard to believe anyone could be so stupid really.
    A lot of moneybags have lots of locos, and a restoration team slowly drifting off too old to do anything. Like for instance the Bluebell is full of locos like 76027 now, will they end up scrapped after their spell of temporarily delayed scrapping?
     
  4. Kinghambranch

    Kinghambranch Well-Known Member

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    BR Standard 4 No 76027 was cut up at Cohens, Morriston, Swansea after withdrawal at the end of October 1965 so I don't know what you're getting at.
     
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  5. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Part of the furniture

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    Presuming you mean 75o27, that's owned by the railway so I'd suggest incredibly unlikely. If it does happen, then I'd suggest the movement would probably be crumbling as a whole anyway by that time.
     
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  6. D6332found

    D6332found New Member

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    75027 typo. and 16 other locos "static on display.". And yes one of the best, most successful preserved lines.
    Anyway this is thread drift, trying to say many locos are neither safe nor seemingly much wanted
     
  7. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Part of the furniture

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    Just because a loco isn't steamable doesn't mean it's not wanted. You might as well say what if someone rips up the P'way for scrap value, it's just as pointless as speculating that some of the most securely owned steam locos in the industry might get scrapped.
     
  8. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Active Member

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    The real tragedy of this is that it was avoidable. It didn't have to end up this way.
     
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  9. Paul42

    Paul42 Part of the furniture

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    75027 has steamed in every decade except the present since its arrival at the Bluebell.
     
  10. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

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    This does highlight something I have said before. Are the older railways that acquired many locos, SVR, KWVR, MHR, Bluebell etc holding up the restoration of certain locos? I'm not having a go at any of those railways as they are all entitled to keep what they own etc but would other railways be able to get more support for a restoration. For instance say the worst condition standard 4 tanks at the Bluebell, if its realistically well over 10-15 years before it would ever get looked at why not gift it to somewhere else. Could a railway such as ecclesbourne or mid Norfolk where they don't have a loco of their own be able to have new flagship and gain support and interest to get it restored. Look at what the ESR managed to achieve with the ivatt. All focused on one loco and getting it out. A standard 4 at ecclesbourne would be fantastic in my opinion and it could be that a deal could be done so that once restored it could return to the Bluebell for an event for free meaning that people from the Bluebell get to see it working and raise some money for their other projects. A win win.

    Maybe that's just too simplistic and I am not criticizing any of the railways or suggesting that ecclesbourne want xx loco. I simply picked it out as its a railway that currently has to hire in steam for the main branch.
     
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  11. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Well-Known Member

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    I'd say it is a bit over-simplistic, Gav. The SVR is the one I know, and it owns very few of the locos on its line. Most are owned by societies, and it is the societies' decision to move away or stay. All, so far and for many years, have chosen to stay. Those that do belong to the railway are capital assets and appear as such in the railway's accounts, and gifting assets isn't something likely to appeal to the shareholders - or auditors.

    A second problem is, how likely is the 'gift' of, say, a Standard 4 Tank, needing perhaps half a million pounds spending on it to bring it back to running order, being well received? Does the receiving railway have the resources needed to carry out the overhaul any more than the gifting railway? Probably not.
     
  12. John Baritone

    John Baritone New Member

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    I was very glad to hear about that project, Sidmouth - and I'm sure it will prove a very useful addition to the fleet, and pull in lots of hire requests from other lines, too.
     
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  13. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    Surely one of the benefits of a large collection is that engines can be rotated in terms of their periods of steaming? Ringing the changes allows maximum publicity to be obtained when a loco returns to service after years on static display. Our railways would lose a lot of their interest if the same locos were in service at every visit - that's an accountant's dream rather than an enthusiast's! Surplus locos and rolling stock on static display also provide extra interest to attract visitor, although it has to be said that dumped in inaccessible sidings is not the best form of display - but heritage railways are still evolving - in general, most now have reasonable covered accommodation for their engines and the next wave seems to be carriage sheds, with museum buildings and diesel sheds likely to be the following one and wagon sheds the last.

    In my view, too many lines have been established on the principle of "build it and loco owners will bring their engines" as it's a principle that seems to work only to a very limited degree and if there was to be a redistribution of locos the lines losing them would be the worse for it. In general, though, I don't see it happening - as I've said before, it seems to me that its more a case of the rich lines getting richer and snapping up the good opportunities when they arise. When was the last time one of the minor lines(or one of its supporters) funded a significant acquisition?
     
  14. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    The Bluebell has loaned items of rolling stock out on a long term "repair and use" basis before, so clearly isn't averse to the principal. But there does have to be a credible plan for the "repair" part of that equation, and I've not seen much evidence that there is a large amount of spare overhaul capacity around the country just held up for want of a project.

    75027 will I am sure be overhauled at some point in the future - it will require a significant amount of boiler work, but then so have several engines previously overhauled: all three of the big overhauls currently under way (80151, 928, 34059) have seen major boiler repairs undertaken. In the meantime, three different operational Bluebell locos are likely to be loaned for periods this year to other sites to help those organisations out when they have needed motive power.

    Tom
     
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  15. John Baritone

    John Baritone New Member

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    If what I've read about a number of different rebuilds is anything to go by, Tom, I'd say there is very little overhaul capacity which hasn't got a full order book - either for engines from its own line, or from work contracted out by owner's groups on other lines which don't have the facilities. From lead times I've heard mentioned, it also appears that commercial boiler works and foundries also have little spare capacity.

    The upside of that is that when they come due for their next ten yearly, the chances are that the boilers won't require much work to get a new ticket, and therefore the overhauls won't take anywhere near as much time and money to complete as they did this time.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
  16. forty

    forty Member

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    Its easy to forget that just because a loco is resident on a line that its 'theirs' when in reality the locos are owned by small groups/societies who will have their own agenda.

    One option that has become more common in recent times is a type of repair & run agreement. An example I'm thinking of is 45212 which although owned (?) by the KWVR has entered into this type of agreement twice, previously with Pete Best & currently with Ian Riley. Maybe some lines with a bigger overhaul queue might be interested in loaning out a loco which would otherwise not steam for many years under this type of agreement.

    Even after up to 10 years use the loco could be returned in better condition than it was previously & also the loco may well be earning a bit of income rather than standing idle.
     
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  17. Maunsell man

    Maunsell man Well-Known Member

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    Think its more likely to turn up completely sh*gged out personally. Who is going to retyre somebody else's loco or commit to doing major boiler repairs for anything more than the period they are going to play with it? More likely it will be run into the ground and sent back knackered.
     
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  18. Maunsell man

    Maunsell man Well-Known Member

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    Returning to the original topic I seem to remember Jim Arkell was interviewed after the boiler was scrapped and he said the frames and all the surviving bits of the crab were moved to a private site and that the boiler was a complete write-off so was useless anyway with the exception of the foundation ring which was retained (may have been another component TBH as it this is from memory). Also mentioned that it was easier to start with new metal rather than breathe life into a life expired unit.

    Jim used to contribute to NP and was an extremely interesting and clever contributor. unfortunately he ended up getting hounded off by a few who didn't like his posts. Though I have never met the guy he came across as a very competent engineer. Some of his contributions about certain main line locos upset a few people particularly in regard to certain maintenance practices. He did make some comments about one particular engine and it maintenance which caused terrible outrage and ended up being insulted and flamed by the keyboard warriors. A few months later everything he said came out in the press after it failed spectacularly and caused chaos!
     
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  19. forty

    forty Member

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    45212 came back to the KWVR in better condition than when it was first loaned to Mr Best.

    '....run into the ground....knackered......' might be the condition it was in at the start of the agreement.

    Work worn condition fair enough, clearly that would be an implication of the accepting the agreement in principal in the first place.

    As to knackered - not sure what you mean. If you mean uncared for then conditions would be built in to the initial agreement.

    Fact is these agreements exist so can clearly be workable.
     
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  20. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Part of the furniture

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    I recall one of the magazines carrying a picture of the frames and foundation ring resting on top of them at the private site. Hence, I have been rather dubious of and surprised by the certainly with which 2 posters are stating the whole loco has been cut.

    Having the courage to start from scratch on a boiler may well be the way forward - after all, it is what the mainline companies did in the age of steam! I believe that technically, it can certainly be simpler and certainly produce a longer lasting product but that there are major paperwork issues to gain insurance approval. That said, Tornado and now the Patriot have done it, as have numerous smaller boilers, and each one that has been done provides more information for the next. I would be interested in the Patriot Projects experience on the subject.

    Steven
     

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