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LMS Patriot Project Updates

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Gav106, Apr 10, 2011.

  1. Orion

    Orion New Member

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    That's a surprise, a really big surprise because it means that Stewart Cox's recollections in his 'Locomotive Panorama' are wrong.

    Thank you for the post, the book is on order from Amazon and my best regards to the Patriot people at Llangollen.
     
  2. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

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    Noooooo. It's for sale via our website. (Sorry shameless plug). I do know we are having to adjust our bogie to accept the 8f wheelsets. But I'm unsure exactly what it is. I have emailed Kevin (our cad designer) for the exact details of what's happening and as soon as he lets me know I'll post what he says on here.

    Gav.
     
  3. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Part of the furniture

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    As I understand it however, the final batch of (10?) Patriots were cancelled by Stanier and replaced by the first order for Jubilees. If such was the case how much (apart from the obvious replacement of the Patriot parallel boiuler by Stanier's taper boiler) of the cancelled Patriot order was retained for the new Jubilee order ?
     
  4. Orion

    Orion New Member

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    The first five Jubilees had the bogie design that was discussed above.

    Regards
     
  5. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

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    Thought i would add a few more pics from the last few weeks and our 2013 plan taken from the website.

    [​IMG]
    SDR Engineer, Ian Salt oversees the quartering machine as it enlarges one of the crank pin pilot holes in the Patriot driving wheels, this being the crank axle. Note that all three Patriot driving wheelsets are visible in this view.
    Oakwood Visuals.
    [​IMG]
    A close up of the large crank pin hole in the second axle to be completed to this stage. Also note the presence of the keys - all six of these are now in position. Soon the only jobs will be the balance weights, the fitting of the crank pins (although drawings are still being finalised) and the final machining of the tyres.
    Oakwood Visuals.
    [​IMG]
    The measuring device to precisely position this wheel pan (in this case on the crank axle) so that at this end of the axle the centre of the axle, the key and the centre of the crank pin hole are vertical to the floor – the device is seen fitted to a 'dummy crank pin' (the chuck), which is in the crank pin pilot hole, before its removal and the boring out of the pilot hole can begin. This is the fifth crank pin hole being readied for boring out. The cutting tool is in the bottom left-hand corner.
    The job will start when the wheel pan at the west end (this end) of the machine has the centre of its crank pin hole/key/centre of the axle at 90 degrees to the floor, whereas the crank pin pilot hole in the other wheel pan, at the east end of the machine, is at 120 degrees to it - 'quartering' should perhaps be described as 'thirding' (althouth it isn't) on a three cylinder engine. The lining up for this job today took nearly two hours, while the boring process will take around a day to complete for each hole, each cut taking around 15 minutes, and about 30 cuts are required (depending on the final size of hole required). The holes are sized as per the crank pins that will fit them, there being four different crank pin designs on the Patriot.
    Oakwood Visuals.
    [​IMG]
    image of one of our axle boxes
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    2012 progress in pictures done by Kirsten Shell
    [​IMG]
    Here is a photo of the front plate for the smokebox.

    [TABLE="width: 769"]
    [TR]
    [TD="width: 336"]WHEELSETS All wheelsets now have a full set of tyres – quartering of wheels to be completed after Christmas. Crank pins to be manufactured and fitted during January 2013. Balance weights to be fitted during January 2013.
    Wheelsets to be despatched to Llangollen mid February 2013, with painting of wheelsets to be completed during February/March 2013.
    DRIVING AXLEBOXES
    Preliminary axlebox machining has now been completed by FHT Southam w/e 19th Dec and the axleboxes will be shipped to Tyseley early in the New Year. Completion is anticipated by the end of March but this is dependent on frames being final assembled at Llangollen as some of the axlebox final assembly cannot be done until the frames are fully riveted.
    FRAMES
    The machined Hornguides and Tee Pieces will be shipped to Llangollen early in the New Year along with the tender wheelsets (see below). Fitting of Hornguides to frames should be started in early Jan 2013
    Eddie Mocroft has now begun work on the Stretcher 5 pattern with completion expected end 2nd week of January 2013. Casting and machining should take place in late January/early February and it will be shipped to Llangollen mid February for immediate assembly to the frames.
    Brake hanger brackets – pattern made, casting/machining about to be ordered.
    Final riveting of the frames will commence immediately after Stretcher 5 is fitted. We hope Dave Owen will be able to complete the frame assembly by the end of April 2013.
    Painting of the frames should commence end April 2013 with completion by the end of May 2013.
    With all this complete we would hope to see the wheels assembled to the frames in early June.
    Motion girders and motion brackets – drawings are nearly completed – we will then be seeking quotes for fabrication of these items – the originals were castings.
    We are awaiting drawings from Kevin West for the cab & running plate. We expect to order a kit of parts for Dave Owen to assemble put together before Members' Day.
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 26"] [/TD]
    [TD="width: 393"]BOGIE
    Kevin West, our Design Engineer, met Bob Meanley at Tyseley on Thursday 20th Dec to agree the bogie design. Subject to obtaining the second bogie wheel and boxes from a Turkish 8F (via The Churchill Locomotive Group) it is planned to have the engine visit Tyseley in October to have the new bogie fitted prior to arriving at the NEC in November. The revised design requires new hornguides which will be cast during the spring along with the bogie centre casting. Bob will take full responsibility for the assembly of the whole unit.
    BOILER
    The smokebox and front tubeplate are now well under way and should be finished by the end of January. We expect to fit this to the frames along with the smoke deflectors and chimney off 45539 'E. C. Trench' prior to Members' Day.
    We have met with our insurers RSA who have suggested slight design changes to the boiler which they believe could run at 225 psi as compared to the 200 psi of the original design.
    TENDER
    We expect the Bury tender to be dismantled in January – the frames will then be shot blasted to enable Dave Owen to provide a quote to allow Richard to put in an application to the HLF (and others) for grant aid. Another loco group has expressed the wish to hire our tender for 2014/5 whilst their own is being overhauled. The refurbished tender wheels should arrive in Llangollen by early January 2013. We hope that the painting volunteers will be able to start work painting them immediately after they arrive at Llangollen.
    OTHER ITEMS
    We now have three lubricators – one (8 feed) for the right hand side of the loco and two 8 feeds for the left hand side. These will be combined to into one in a newly cast box to provide a 16 feed lubricator for the cylinders and valves.
    We now have about 70% of the parts we need for the speedometer required for main line running.

    On behalf of the LMS-Patriot Project thank you for your continued support.

    David Bradshaw, Chairman
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]
     
  6. shedbasher

    shedbasher New Member

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    Great Pics hope to see it at the NEC
     
  7. jnc

    jnc Well-Known Member

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    Thanks very much for that extremely informative and detailed update.

    Noel
     
  8. RalphW

    RalphW Part of the furniture Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    Yes it's extremely encourging, the constant flow of info and pics keeps the interest going.
     
  9. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

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    I havent updated on here for a while so here is whats gone on in the last month.

    [​IMG]
    New brass lubrication castings , waiting to be machined.
    [​IMG]
    Our Pattern for No5 frame stretcher
    [​IMG]
    The outside connecting rod forged steel blank has started to be machined. FHT, at Southam who are undertaking the work, are using the original connecting rod, which we have from the other side, as a pattern for machining.
    [​IMG]
    Some pictures of the horn guides awaiting fitting to the frames
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    Another picture, but this time away from Llangollen Railway and in the words of AK From oakwood visuals "can you tell what it is yet"
    [​IMG]
    no5 stretcher minus sand. This will be machined and cleaned up over the next few weeks and then delivered to Llangollen Railway ready to fit between the frames
    [​IMG]
    Another image of stretcher 5. Just to show how complex the casting was. And with the added fact that we didnt have the drawing for this either.
     
  10. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    The sheet metal of this ex Royal Scot tender tank can be broken off by hand in many places, such is its condition. One of the Llangollen Railway apprentices is here shoveling out the lumps of rusted metal from within the tank
    [​IMG]
    A Llangollen Railway apprentice cuts away wasted metal. By this stage the bolts at footplate level had already been cut through/removed to allow the 'complete' body to be lifted away at footplate height. Once removed, the reclamation of useful body parts will continue at ground height.
    [​IMG]
    These are some of the parts salvaged from the tender that was stripped down at Barry in late 2011, but was found to have frames that were way too thin to resurrect, well at one end of them in particular - some useful castings here though. Other items that are not salvagable themselves were also removed at Barry as they will be used as templates, should that be required, to make new
    [​IMG]
    Day 2 of the reclamation finds the tender being shunted into position. Note that the steps on the rear of the tank have already been removed for reuse on the rebuilt tender.


    See post below as there were to many pics for one post

    And to those of you out and about Next weekend at Either the Nene Valley or Churnet Valley galas come and say hi.

    Gavin
     
  11. RalphW

    RalphW Part of the furniture Staff Member Administrator Friend

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  12. Jordan-Leeds

    Jordan-Leeds New Member

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    For those interested in helping make history happen we are now looking to strengthen our supporting volunteer base with new people so if you would like to be involved please send an email to our volunteer coordinator on volunteer@lms-patriot.org.uk

    Without volunteers this Project like many others simply wouldnt happen
     
  13. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

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    Time for another update.

    Since my last post there has been a number of different steps forward.

    First we will start with the frame plates for the front bogie.
    [​IMG]

    Just to add to this EVERY single component for the front bogie has been ordered. We are still on target to have this ready for Warley model railway exhibition.

    [​IMG]

    Now completely machined.

    [​IMG]

    Motion Bracket and Motion Girder design has been finalised. We have decided to have these fabricated instead of cast. They are to be completed by LNWR Crewe.

    [​IMG]

    Kevin has now also completed the detail design of the Platforms.

    [​IMG]


    The Smokebox is progressing nicely inside LNWR Crewe.
     
  14. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

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    The most exciting piece of news for us recently is that work has started on the construction of the inside cylinder.


    [​IMG]

    Another of Kevins super CAD work. As many of you will already know we have taken the decision to have our cylinders cast from Polystyrene patterns for financial reasons. The pattern alone in wood (inside cylinder) would have cost in the region of £35,000 where as the Poly pattern is costing only £2,800.

    [​IMG]

    The job is split into layers to ensure that each of the shapes within, for exhaust steam out etc, are exact. The poly layers will be stuck together with the pattern makers next week, and will then be used as a single pattern to cast from. A traditional wooden pattern for this very complicated design would involve countless core boxes and months of work to create the same steam passages - also, the material cost for this is less than £100, which would not be the case with hard wood. Also, favourable in comparison is the timescale, it looks likes Kevin's conversion of the original LMS drawing for CAD will result in a finished pattern in about four weeks - start to finish, so that means that the WHOLE job could take something like 7 weeks! - excluding machining.


    [​IMG]

    Everything on this table is for the Patriot, the single layer standing upright is for part of the middle cylinder pattern, and the 13 items in the foreground are all patterns for the bogie. It is hoped (expected) that ALL of these items will reach their respective foundries by the end of next week.



    So all in all a good couple of months for the project.



    On another note our Members day at Llangollen railway is coming up soon (Sat 15 June) and as we stand there may be some tickets available for the Fish and Chip special in the evening (Leaves Llan at 18:30) so i will let you know asap but if anyone is interested please PM me and ill put you on a first come first served basis. The price is £15 for members and £17 for none members with choice of Cod, Jumbo Sausage and Vegetable sausage all served with chips and a choice of side (gravy,curry sauce,mushy peas, beans)

    Gavin.
     
  15. QLDriver

    QLDriver New Member

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    I see that the castings have been made from these patterns. It's really impressive! Is there any chance you could let us know who made the patterns?

    Of course, the caveat that understandably isn't covered in your cost comparison is how much the CAD work would cost at commercial rates.
     
  16. Pesmo

    Pesmo New Member

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    I am fascinated by the way the cylinder patterns have been made, and surely this is a bigger story for loco preservation than it initially appears.

    This must be a first for a steam loco and it shows where modern techniques can save a significant amount of labour and expense. Other projects will learn from this when they realise that cylinders have been designed, modelled and cast for possibly 80% less cost than previously. It must also bring hope to some loco's sitting awaiting cylinder repairs where the patterns do not exist.

    Regarding Patriots cylinders are they exactly the same as the original patriot cylinders or have some improvements been made to the steam passages to reflect up to date thinking as to their shape and diameter ?
     
  17. QLDriver

    QLDriver New Member

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    I see from reading here that it was Premier Patterns in Smethwick that produced the patterns. There are also some good photos of the components of the pattern at that link!
     
  18. b.oldford

    b.oldford New Member

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    A viable process for a "one off" but should be used with care, particularly if steel is to be cast. http://tinyurl.com/m82fo9g
    One solution is to use the Replicast® Process http://tinyurl.com/nyrdsv5
    Of course a mis-cast means a completely new pattern is required.
     
  19. stevepurves

    stevepurves New Member

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  20. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

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    Yes this is true. but the cost of the wooden pattern was quoted at £35,000 and would take 6 months none stop work to complete. But we were told that we wouldnt have it in 6 months as they would loose all the trade from other customers so it would be more like 12-18 months. Our poly pattern cost just over £2,200 and only took 10 weeks from nothing to fully cast. And not only this, because the way in which the poly is pored we saved money on the metal as we didnt need as much (all the waste you see on normal castings)

    And of course being a new build we only plan to do a one off. We have also used this poly method on parts for our front bogie as can bee seen in a picture above and will use it no doubt on more items in the future such as the out side cylinders and the motion brackets which were going to be fabricated but will now be cast.

    Ill add some pictures now for you to see progress since the last update from me
    [​IMG]
    our balance weights are currently being riveted on with only the crank axle set to be done, and all crank pins are now in place.
    the wheels were to be sent to tyseley to be machined as south devon couldnt manage the 6ft 9in diameter, but they have just installed a new lathe and if this is all in working order it will now be completed at SDR.

    [​IMG]
    The running board platework was delivered to Llan last week.
    [​IMG]
    It was also out "members day" at Llan on sat 15th june and Alan Crossfield kindly brought his 5in Patriot down to display next to the frames. In the back ground you can see the newly painted smokebox which was finished at LNWR crewe 3 weeks ago and taken to Llan for display at our members day.
    [​IMG]
    And the last picture for today is this excellent shot taken by Andrew Fowler of our "Members day" special.


    So whats next for the project? well the inside cylinder is currently being machined and will be completed in the next 2-4 weeks, this will the go straight to Llan for riveting into the frames which will allow the rest of the front end to be riveted. The driving wheels will then go to Tyseley for the fitting of axle boxes and then on to Llan, which should see them in the frames by the end of August at the latest.

    Then theres also all the front bogie work to be getting on with as well.

    OH and one final good bit of news.......... we have ordered the copper for the firebox. This is expected to be in the UK by august so we could see work commence on the inside firebox by the end of THIS year. so to those of you out there wanting to donate money to a project that is really moving jump on board so we can continue to progress at this rate. And of course ill keep you all upto date with pictures as and when i get them.

    Gavin
     

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