LMS Patriot Project Updates

The team he had working for him. In particular, most likely, his chief draughtsman.

This page credits a Jack Francis for the mechanical design. http://www.steamindex.com/locotype/fowlerlo.htm#patriot

 

Most interesting , perhap it should be known as the Francis Patriot then.

 

You'd have to retitle just about every class out there then, and of course there will almost certainly have been a number of draughtsman designing different parts of the locomotive. The CME has the responsibility and takes the credit and/or the blame.
To take another example the genesis of the GWR 4300 (and arguably the modern mixed trafficlocomotive) could be traced to this instruction from Churchward to Harry Holcroft: "Very well then; get me out a 2-6-0 with 5 feet 8 inch coupled wheels, outside cylinders and the No.4 boiler and bring in all the standard parts you can". And that, according to Holcroft, was Churchward's involvement.
Cox (L&Y/LMS/BR) says in Chronicles of Steam: "What did NOT happen was that the CME turned up one day with a locomotive diagram he had sketched out personally in his study at home, and which delineated all that he required the draughtsmen to design into his new product. ... I can say in the case of all the CME's with whom I have myself been associated, initial form was usually arrived at gradually and the process of gestation was often a lengthy and complex one..."

 

Equally enlightening stuff, and indeed as with many other jobs of this nature, the man appointed to take charge of a department will ultimately take responsibility to whatever work is done under his leadership, for better or worse.

Actually there are in fact several other examples of locomotives that weren't necessary completely designed by their appointed designers. The Princess Coronation Class for example, if I remember this correctly, was drawn up/designed actually while Stanier was absent at the time.

 

Indeed, it was Tom Coleman who was responsible for most of the Stanier designs - a one-time footballer for Port Vale before joining the North Staffordshire Railway!

Dave

 

I see well it just goes to show we can't necessarily give CMEs all the glory/blame. Though having said that, there are still times when the CME will take full charge on certain projects. For example Stanier was well known to have detested the Coronations streamlining, insisting in fact that the rest should be non streamlined, or so the story goes...

 

Depends what you mean by glory/blame!

The bare minimum requirement for a CME was to be the head of department that built and repaired locomotives. Some railways additionally added being head of locomotive operations as well as construction. He may also have had responsibility for the construction and repair of carriages and wagons, and even shipping (such as Stroudley on the LBSCR). He may also have had responsibility for sundry miscellaneous machinery, such as pumping stations etc.

By the grouping era that would typically mean being in charge of a department numbering into the tens of thousands, and with annual capital and revenue expenditure that would be equivalent to hundreds of millions at today's prices. They would also have to be the key person on the board, translating future operational requirements into solid programmes of design and manufacture. In the circumstances, it's maybe not too surprising if the time they spent actually in front of a drawing board was somewhat limited! As @Jimc's illuminating comment about the genesis of the 43xx illustrated...

Tom

 

... and of course CME'S didnt just trot out new designs for the sake of it, they we're of expected to provide motive power to the demands, or anticipated demands of the running departments.
Churchwards forethought in creating a standard kit of parts that could be assembled into a variety of required designs is well recognised The other big four companies we're perhaps hampered in persuing a similar structured approach by internal politics and power struggles on amalgamation
Bulleid and perhaps Gresley we're a little different -( Heres a solution, go make some problems it can solve...)

 

There's a good story about Coleman in Master Builders of Steam - the LMS Board couldn't make its mind up about whether streamlining was really necessary, so Stanier got Coleman to draw the engine again, this time without the streamlined casing - Coleman also gave it a nameplate inscribed Lady Godiva! After this the board went ahead with the streamlining - even if it wasn't universally liked.

Incidentally Herbert Chambers was Chief Draughtsman under Fowler, and being a dyed in the wool MR man he couldn't accept all the changes Stanier wanted to make, so Stanier 'moved him aside' and appointed Coleman, from Horwich, to be in charge of the drawing offices at both Derby and Crewe.

Dave

 

Just to make things even more complicated the boilers carried on the original Patriots, as being replicated by The Unknown Warrior, was designated G9 1/2S. This was the large boiler used on some of the Claughtons in their final years. The boiler arrangement drawing was signed off by Hewitt Beames at Crewe works on 27th May 1927. So once again, something that Fowler can not claim as his own work.

Kevin West
Chief Engineer
LMS Patriot Project

 

I suppose you could think of it being vaguely like football managers, who don't play in the game, but nevertheless its their fault if the team can't win.

 

Very interesting! I knew the boiler was of the Larger Claughton type, but never knew who was responsible for it. I also find it interesting that a locomotive so intrinsically "Midland" in its appearance has, at its heart, a piece of LNWR-designed history.

Richard.

 

A further example from the Churchward era, I have read that Hawksworth was responsible for a large part of the design of The Great Bear!

 

Engineering Update - May 2015
Submitted by Kevin West on 8 May, 2015 - 15:07
Locomotive Frame Assembly
Work continues on a number of fronts on the construction of The Unknown Warrior.

Following the fitment of the Cylinders work continued toward conducting hydraulic testing of the cylinder blocks. This showed up a few minor porous sections in the castings, where, whilst under high pressure small beading of water like sweat appears on the casting surface. The castings have now been sent away for specialist treatment to seal these sections They are due back at Llangollen in the next few days to be re-fitted to the frame assembly.



The LH cylinder under hydraulic test at Llangollen shed. 23rd April 2015 The pressure gauge is reading 250psi.

Photo – Kevin West

Other work continues on the Frame Assembly as time and work force availability permits. Unfortunately since the last report the Arwell and Chris have been called on to work on the Llangollen Railway home fleet locos, so progress is not as great as we would have expected. Discussions with Llangollen Railway have been held to see if this can be addressed in the future.

The volunteer painting gang continues work on the locomotive frames and Driving Wheels. Work has also started on refurbishment of the legacy motion parts acquired from Jubilee class locomotives a couple of years ago.

Drawings have been sent out for quotations for the four leading Sandboxes.



CAD image of the Sandboxes fitted inside the Frame Assembly.

Photo – Kevin West

Design work is continuing on the remaining Valve Gear parts required.

Brake System and Lubrication System
The locomotive Brake Cylinder from 8F 48518 has been moved to Harco Engineering for refurbishment. This move was due to happen some time ago, It had been placed in safe storage – so safe no one could remember where! It finally can to light in a van under parts for another loco being re-assembled at LLangollen.

On the Frame Assembly the Brake Hanger Brackets have been riveted to the Frames.



Brake Hanger Bracket

Photo – Kevin West

The Brake Hangers are due to be cast about now.



Brake Hanger pattern

Photo – Premier Patterns

Work is also underway on the design of the lubrication system. The Lubricators themselves are under overhaul, one at the Great Central Railway, Loughborough and the other will be done at Llangollen.

The installation of all the copper pipe runs is a huge undertaking which we are to start progressing this summer. We have the offer of a volunteer who wishes to work on the locomotive for a few weeks this summer. If anyone wishes to help on this work, even for a few days please contact the project office. Your help will be greatly appreciated.

Pistons, Valves and Motion
Work continues at Llangollen towards fitting the Motion Girders to the Frame Assembly.

Once the Cylinder are in place fitting the rear covers and slide bars will progress to completion

The Piston casting will be ordered soon.

Manufacture of the Coupling Rod Bushes and Brasses is expected to start soon at Llangollen.

The End Strap for the Inside Connecting Rod was forged at Sommers Forge on 6th May. The steel arrives as a square billet. This is placed in a furnace and heated to 1200 degrees C for 8 hours before being placed under the forge hammer and worked into a flat piece ready for profiling and subsequent machining.



The billet being moved from the furnace to the forge hammer.



The End Strap takes shape.

Photos – Kevin West

Bogie
Work on assembling the bogie has commenced at Tyseley Locomotives Works. A small amount of remedial work has been required on the Bogie Centre casting, which id due for completion next week. Next stage will be to mount the Frame Plates to the Centre Casting.



Horn Guides being fitted to the Bogie Frame Plates.

Photo – Kevin West



Detail discussions with our Vehicle Acceptance Body (VAB) and South Devon Engineering over the assembly of the new Bogie Wheelset, to ensure it complies with the new RISAS standards have reached an acceptable conclusion. .Drawings have been updated in line and passed to Harco Engineering to allow the Axle and WheelCenters to be machined.

Boiler
Work continues on the forming blocks for the outer firebox Steel Flanged plates at Tyseley Locomotive Works.

At LNWR Crewe, the Inner Firebox components are now in the new works at Crewe South, ready for assembly to start..

The new drawings required for the design changes to the boiler submitted to the insurance company for their approval have all been passed.

The barrel section rolled at Deepdale have been delivered to Crewe. Work is in progress on the Foundation ring with material acquired ahead of manufacture. The steel Outer Firebox Wrapper sheet is about to be ordered from Deepdale. This is formed from 3 sheets of material and agreement on the positions of the 2 welded joints has been agreed to allow manufacture to commence.



Tender
Work on the refurbishment on the Tender Frames continues at Rowlescourt Engineering. The Tender Frames were inspected by a representative of our VAB, who recommended wjich parts of the Rear Drag Box required replacement. As the work required to remove the plates would involve removing virtually all the Drag Box it has been decided to replace the complete assembly with a totally new fabricated unit. The VAB have been informed and agreed to this approach.

Following on from this, cad data and drawings for the required steel parts were prepared and passed to Rowlescourt to allow construction to continue.



Work in progress on the Tender Dragbox Assembly.

Photo – Kevin West

The Front Drag Box will follow the same route. Cad work for this is underway.

The design for the new tender tank has been progressing when time allows.

 

Kevins CAD image of the inside connecting rod cap.

 

Interesting reading about the porous sections in the cylinder castings. Is this a common occurrence when new cylinders are being cast? I've not heard of it before.
Also, the casting of the expansion links is interesting... Will these be as strong as forged items? I thought the strength of forgings lay in the alignment of the grains within the steel. No criticism at all, just interested in learning the ins and outs!

Richard.

 

I think all castings have an element of porosity to them, it's a matter of whether it affects the intended use of the item. In the case of the cylinders it's obviously not a good thing if steam/water can penetrate the piston or valve bores via a non intended route.

I haven't seen any mention of a cast expansion link - are you sure you're not mixing up the pattern for the brake hangers?

Keith

 

Didnt fancy a roller bearing for the inside connecting rod then ?

 

Here is the LMS Patriots "Tribute to the LMS" picture from today. I hope you all enjoy seeing this new loco coming together. Only 2 years and 4 months until first steaming (Subject to kind donations of course!) please visit http://www.lms-patriot.org.uk/civicrm/contribute/transact?reset=1&id=1 to donate today.



And im afraid i cant answer your more technical questions but im sure Kevin will be on here soon to answer in detail.

 

Wasn't it the expansion link support brackets that were cast?