LMS Patriot Project Updates

Head of Special Trains? Who would that be? Is that a Network Rail position? Or someone in the Preservation movement?

 

Great! Can't wait to see it.

 

I'm lucky enough to have had both 46229 and 46233. As someone who's a big fan of BR Green and Lined Black, when I saw 46233 in green Dare I say I was rather diss appointed! Lizzie's and Big Lizzie's should be red! Jintys and Crabs look okay in in red too!

 

It was a gentleman called David Ward, he has a very strong dislike of Middle Chrome Green and Blackberry Black, he had a little rant about 60007 being the wrong shade of blue a few years ago even though the owning group had a democratic vote, and BR blue was a clear winner, plus it gave the A4 loco society a very USP

 

Not trying to wind you up but did its "lifetime" stop in 1968 (or before) some locos have spent more time in preservation than in active service - just saying.

 

Oh yes. That rings a bell. Well, the over-riding factor should always be what the owners want.

Personally I like the Patriot approach of planning livery changes over time. That gives everyone a little of what they want.

 

I meant in its pre-preservation lifetime. But you have a point. I suppose some of the Bluebell or KWVR's early liveries could now be considered "historic".

 

Yes indeed some quite colorful choices, some worked others not so good, 5407 in Furness India Red was a miss to my eyes but others from Carnforth looked quite good.

 

I would agree on both counts. I have fond memories of 41241 in red. Exciting early days of preservation.

 

Especially on a sunny day like today has been (so far!).

Indeed, today has been a particularly good day to think about the "Patriot" and I was most fortunate earlier today to join many other Service Veterans and march behind the serving contingent and the standards through the City of York to the memorial service by Leeman Road which is, as you probably all know, quite close to the Railway Station. The weather was excellent and peoples' applause (which took me by surprise somewhat) was very warm but I could not help thinking how wonderful it will be when perhaps, after the service, we could walk over to the Station and see 5551 in steam. Like I've said before, this LMS Patriot Project is far more than just another new build scheme - it will be a focus for remembrance for years and years to come. The livery is perhaps of a lesser issue but the rich LMS maroon may reflect the blood and sacrifice of our brothers and sisters, parents, children and friends. 5551 will help me to remember the friends I lost in the Falklands and in Afghanistan. I'm sure many of you have your own candles to light too.

Here dead we lie
Because we did not choose
To live and shame the land
From which we sprung.

Life, to be sure,
Is nothing much to lose,
But young men think it is,
And we were young.

A E Housman

 

Fantastic achievement and a loco I would love to see, all the best to the group. Liveries - I like a bit of a mixture personally, I do like BR liveries but I also like pre nationalisation ones too, I think LMS Crimson Lake is the right choice for this one.

 

Please remember that our plan is for her to carry different liveries over time. So Crimson is the beginning. We always have been a project where we let our members decide big decisions. Obviously we have the livery but we also let our members choose the name of the Locomotive as well. I have always felt that having members imput is far more important. I suppose the next vote will be which design of Fowler tank should we do? and again the livery will be down to vote for that one too depending on choice. And who knows if we can keep up a large membership and donations maybe we could find ourselves in an A1 style position and be able to build a 3rd or 4th loco with our own shed and space to organise. But of course we need to finish this first one, and move stage by stage and keep everyone happy.

 

Yes, I like the idea of going through all the liveries a loco would have carried. LMS Crimson would be the first, presume during World War 2 they would have been black, then BR Green. Some of the Patriots also carried BR lined black, not sure how many or when in relation to green

 

Although I invariably prefer pre-nationalisation liveries I do think that BR lined black would be particularly appropriate for a memorial loco. As well as being close to the livery carried by the original Great War memorial loco 1914 Patriot.

 

Doesn't matter what colour it is painted.
Shouldn't detract from the effort put in to such a working memorial to our serviceman.

 

Red is generally accepted as for rememberance (Poppy) Black for mourning.

 

I think the reason that livery debates are so animated these days is a reflection of the desire for greater authenticity, particularly when it comes to photographing the trains. I can remember the 1970s and early 1980s when homespun liveries could be found at the Bluebell and KWVR while main line steam trains consisted of Mk 1 stock in the two-tone blue. The latter just about counted as authentic behind a BR-liveried Black 5 (except there weren't any at the time!), but certainly not behind an LMS-liveried Jubilee or a Garter Blue A4.

We did, of course, have Didcot's GWR set and everyone liked it but there was no less a turn-out at the lineside for a throughly inauthentic looking train of Blue Mk 1s. We were pleased that steam engines were still able to run on the main line at all. I can recall a linesider showing me some of his pictures and thinking how brilliant they were. Indeed, I thought some of my own attempts from that period weren't too bad at the time. Can anyone remember the Carnforth-York/Harrogate circular- Carnforth train on 20th October 1979 with Leander and MR 1000? There were crowds out for this - a fine Autumn day. I took a picture of Leander storming through Church Fenton on the return leg - full sun, masses of clag. attractive old station. For years afterwards I would have said to people, "This is one of my best ever railway pictures" but now, purely because of the mis-match of liveries between loco and stock, it would come well down my list of favourites.

Of course, if you're on the train, it doesn't matter two hoots what colour the engine or coaches are painted. I have fond memories of my travels behind main line steam in the rail blue coaches era while one heritage line trip which particularly sticks in my mind many years later was an incredibly noisy assault on Medstead Bank, Mid Hants Railway, by 34105 Swanage complete with "Thomas" face! It was a family treat for my nephew who was going through the Thomas craze at the time. I hadn't even bothered to bring a camera but what a marvellous performance.

So while maybe I wouldn't turn out to photograph an LMS-liveried 5551 at the head of a rake of Mk 1 stock, I'll be looking forward to a chance to travel behind it and perhaps when livery debates start getting a bit heated, we should perhaps go back to the 1970s/80s mentality and be grateful that we still have main line steam - and even more so that an A1 and a Patriot, among others, have come back from the dead.

 

I think there is an irony, though, in that as main line steam trains have got more authentic (at least in terms of matching liveries), the network they run on has become less "authentic" for photography. Back in the '70s and '80s you could still find plenty of semaphore signals, for example.

These days it is really, really difficult to get a genuinely authentic-looking steam-age scene on the main line. Even if you're out in the country, away from modern buildings, cars, etc., things like the continuous welded rail or the lack of telegraph poles give the game away.

Besides, even if you can get a loco with a complete train of coaches in matching livery, very often there will be a Mk. II support coach or a generator van to spoil the illusion.

So personally I think it's just not worth getting hung up about the details. 5551 will look just fine at the head of a rake of maroon Mk. Is when she's on the main line. And if we want a slightly more authentic LMS recreation, we could always take her to the Severn Valley...!

 

Or Strathspey.