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LMS Patriot Project Updates

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Gav106, Apr 10, 2011.

  1. Tim Light

    Tim Light Active Member

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    Interesting post. You don't say exactly why you are uncomfortable, but I guess I had similar feelings when the A1 Trust chose to identify their loco as "Tornado" very early in the project. Nothing new about naming a loco after a warplane, but I did feel that it was trying to cash in on the Falklands factor.
     
  2. 35B

    35B Resident of Nat Pres

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    Very worthy, but rather narrow in it's focus, certainly compared to the original intent. If there's to be a single charity focus, then I believe SSAFA or Help for Heroes are the two national mulit-service organisations; personally, I'd be more interested in something that goes beyond a single charity.
     
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  3. 35B

    35B Resident of Nat Pres

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    I suspect more mixed motives, and some canny positioning given the circumstances of the original class.
     
  4. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Who knows, although as the RBL (as are all national charities from my personal experience) are incredibly 'brand' aware (especially in their case for the reasons another poster outlined above regarding nefarious use of the poppy symbol) and thus will have people employed to make sure it is not being used incorrectly I just don't buy it, for gawd sake if you put in 'Royal British Legion Patriot' (RBL has its own 'patriot' programme incidentally) into Google its the third one down, however whats done is done.

    On your wider issues I must confess I have felt similar about the project over the years, but we are where we are now and I hope they finish it.
     
  5. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    and there is me thinking it was named after Brit 70022.
     
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  6. Foxhunter

    Foxhunter Member

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    Errr.... with respect, the Gulf War.... and I don't think 'cash in' is an entirely appropriate accusation. The A1SLT has a long association with members of the armed forces and the relationship with the RAF (and now the Royal Navy) is very much a two-way one. Did the GWR 'cash in' on the RAF by re-naming so many Castles? Did Bulleid with the BoBs? I think you need to acknowledge the difference between paying respect and honouring warriors and blatantly commercialising a military connection.

    Foxy
     
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  7. Maunsell man

    Maunsell man Well-Known Member

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    As much as I think the Patriot project is a worthy cause and has achieved fantastic results to date, I too was uneasy with the connection to RBL for the same reasons as many other contributors have already said. These views were discussed at length with the Rememberence line nonsense and I was heavily criticised by the dreamers and fruit loops that were supporting it. That the Rememberence Line was a duck so dead that it smelt of hoisin sauce as soon as it was conceived is another matter. Still waiting for the fleet of gas producing R1s and the stock shed built from redundant overhead line masts...

    The objective of the Patriot Group was to rebuild an extinct steam loco. By tacking that onto the RBL it is really only a cash raising opportunity.

    No doubt the project will succeed in its endeavours because its (from the outside at least) well managed and effective in its delivery. For that it should be lauded. This is not really a setback
     
  8. AndyY

    AndyY Member

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    The Patriot Project is a good example of the organisations being discussed on the 'Membership' thread. I just checked on their website and the only way offered to join is to print a form and post it, although membership renewals are offered on line. If online joining and payment with Paypal were available I would have joined there and then.

    Get your act together, please!
     
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  9. Kinghambranch

    Kinghambranch Well-Known Member

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    Don't know about the REMEMBRANCE Line but I joined the Patriot group precisely because of its links to the LMS and LNWR's naming of a loco for the fallen and the link with the RBL (which now seems to have been severed - in my view to the detriment of the RBL not the LMS Patriot Group). You all know my views on this new build loco anyway, it's by far the most significant one.
     
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  10. Arther1973

    Arther1973 New Member

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    A pity 'The Royal Air Force' was a Royal Scot or I would have suggested that as an alternative :):D
     
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  11. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

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    AndyY fair point. And the website of ours has been raised as something we need to massively improve. We had our AGM on saturday and someone with the skills to do this seems to have stepped forward so watch this space.

    With regards to the patriot and memorial engine i think some on here are letting their imagination take over.
    Simple. The original Patriot was a war memorial loco so when we said we wished to bring back a patriot (which some members its their personal priority) there were others who from the very beginning wanted it to represent the war memorial loco and members of the class. The images of patriot and poppies was one they had in their mind from the start. We then did a vote with i think steam railway magazine for a name and the most fitting for a war memorial loco was 'The Unknown Warrior'. This was not a stunt to gain money, the founder members wished it to be that from the start. Both a new build patriot to represent the whole class for the enthusiast AND to represent Patriot itself as the memorial loco. The fact that the name 'The Unknown Warrior' was chosen, which i think is a great name for a memorial loco was the reason it was named National memorial locomotive as it is to cover all the fallen for the nation.
    Regards the RBL we do have written endorsement, the problem was that the person who gave that to us should have had board approval. We didnt know that as the person who gave it was a very high ranking official, and as said in the statement we acted in good faith and NEVER stated we were gaining money from the RBL.
     
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  12. DisusedBranch

    DisusedBranch Active Member

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    I agree with Jimc and Maunsell man.

    The concept of 'remembrance' is so emotive that it always feels slightly cynical when a project that is trying to raise money for its own ends tries to hang on its coat tails. The people who started the project to build a new Patriot did so because they want to build a new Patriot.

    Indeed, even if someone did start a new build with the express intention of wanting to build a 'national memorial locomotive', I would still have reservations. The UK is well blessed throughout with existing war memorials, houses of worship with Forces dedications, the National Memorial Arboretum, etc - places where respects can be paid in a suitable environment. I can't see how building a 21st Century steam locomotive can in any way add to that.

    At least with locomotives like Valour, Remembrance and so on, individual railway companies were honouring their own employees. That, to me, is rather different to railway enthusiasts tagging the concept of 'remembrance' on to a brand new steam locomotive in the 2000s.
     
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  13. BanburyKev

    BanburyKev New Member

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    Can I help clarify a few things here?

    The locomotive will still carry the name The Unknown Warrior. The first member of the class was named Patriot as a memorial to the LNWR staff members killed in WW1. The name was previously carried on a Claughton class locomotive. Although the original 5551 was never named, when the project was launched it was thought desirable to name ours. The Unknown Warrior name was chosen as a result of a competition held with the help of Steam Railway magazine. The new National Memorial Locomotive was an expansion of this theme as no other original memorial locomotives have survived. One of the objectives of our charity constitution is to embrace remembrance.

    The link with the RBL followed on from this. The link with Remembrance was obvious. We have good relationships with several local area groups of the RBL and see no reason why these relationships should not continue.

    A new crest design is already under consideration. It has caused much debate between members of the project committee! The final design will be quite tricky as we are looking for something that is easily recognizable and distinctive and signifies the remembrance/loss of life. As mentioned several times previously, the poppy is an obvious image, but the RBL holds a number of copyrighted images, so we have to be aware of any infringement there.

    As I describe the project at presentations, we are a group of idiots that started building a steam engine and are now also building a war memorial!
     
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  14. Kinghambranch

    Kinghambranch Well-Known Member

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    I guess I'll just have to accept that your views are 180 degrees to mine on this! However, I'm no cynic on this matter.
     
  15. Tim Light

    Tim Light Active Member

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    Yes, sorry. Gulf war.

    I'm all in favour of paying respect, showing gratitude and not forgetting the brave people who have made sacrifices. I think "The Unknown Warrior" is the perfect choice for the Patriot.

    Naming the A1 after a current warplane was a break from tradition. A St. Leger winner would have been a more obvious choice. It would be interesting to know the A1SLT's motivation for this choice, and what other options were considered.

    Did the GWR/SR 'cash in' with their RAF connections? They certainly tapped into patriotic sentiment. I don't see anything wrong in that. After the Battle of Britain the British public had a lot to be grateful for.
     
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  16. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    The second thing to utterly flabbergast me today: that the A1 locomotive Trust could be accused of "cynically cashing in" by using the name Tornado...

    If veterans from the Gulf War who flew Tornados - some of whom I have met at Trust meets - have no problem with the A1 Trust using the name "Tornado" and also choosing to display (as a mark of respect) the crests of Squadrons which did/are using Tornado fighter jets - then what right is it of anyone to criticise or undermine the trust's choice to commemorate the aircraft on the locomotive in this way?

    Some members of the A1 Trust have a military and RAF background in any event! The connections were forged from the very beginning way back in 1991.

    Here is the proof, on the A1 Trust's pages:

    Tornado's History

    [​IMG]

    The name was born out of a desire to remember the sacrifices of the pilots flying Tornados in the first Gulf War. Nothing more, nothing less.

    By the way - strange parallel with The Unknown Warrior here - Tornado's crests on her nameplates have changed a couple of times due to certain squadrons being made redundant. Here in the photograph, on the right we see one of the original crests - this was I believe swapped with that for Leeming, and this has again been swapped for the crest with the blue bull (can't remember the squadron off the top of my head, sorry).
     
  17. Kinghambranch

    Kinghambranch Well-Known Member

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    The blue bull is the Station badge of RAF Marham in Norfolk. Tornado's original plates, as shown in your photo, carried the Station badge of RAF Cottesmore (now Army barracks) and the Tri-National Tornado Training Establishment (TTTE), known colloquially as "Thomas the Tank Engine".
     
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  18. huochemi

    huochemi Well-Known Member Friend

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    Perhaps you should call "Never Again" in furtherance of your educational objectives?;)
     
  19. Tim Light

    Tim Light Active Member

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    Of course, the founders and supporters of this project had every right to use the new A1 to honour the Tornado and its brave pilots. And if that's all there was to it, I heartily apologies for my previous suggestion.
     
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  20. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Removed
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017

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