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LMS Patriot Project Updates

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Gav106, Apr 10, 2011.

  1. Kinghambranch

    Kinghambranch Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, 2020.
     
  2. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

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    On a serious note though, by 2021 it is possible that we have an A1, P2, Atlantic, Patriot, Grange, Saint, Standard 3 tank, County. And maybe the G5 will be very close by that point also. Not bad really!
     
  3. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    Of which, only three are complete new builds. Oh, I forgot, 82045 has a vacuum relief valve from 82019.
     
  4. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    I don't see that as a bad thing - recycling is something the railways were very good at doing. :)

    Perhaps in light of the discussion elsewhere, we should call them "renewals!"
     
  5. 240P15

    240P15 Active Member

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    Good point:)
    Or how about "transformed"?
     
  6. Richard Roper

    Richard Roper Member

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    I like the idea of them being renewals, but the Accountancy reason for their existence isn't legitimate now, as the companies which built the originals no longer exist.
    Apologies for that bit of drift!

    On a different note(!), the Patriot Project has acquired an Ex- Claughton whistle. I am intrigued to know what whistle the original Patriots were fitted with. Did they have a shrill LNWR whistle, or did they have a Fowler / Derby LMS whistle? I can't say I've heard a Patriot whistle on any of the Peter Handford recordings I have.

    Richard.
     
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  7. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    I think I've said before that most of the GWR projects could easily be categorised as renewals. Withdrawn locomotive dismantled and such parts as are suitable for continued usage reused on the new one? Bang on. 9351 was arguably the first standard gauge, but I'm sure there were earlier narrow gauge projects. It would interest me to know whether the long term preserved lines are required to maintain the same capital/renewal/repair budget separation - I can't see it in the published GWS accounts. However you could argue that some overhauls - No 27 on the Bluebell springs to mind - and the vast majority of Barry restorations are sufficiently comprehensive to be categorised as renewal.
     
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  8. ghost

    ghost Well-Known Member

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    Surely there are 5 complete new builds in Gav's list?
    A1, P2, Patriot, 82045, G5


    Keith
     
  9. Richard Roper

    Richard Roper Member

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    Don't forget the Patriot is using a substantial amount of the motion from 45697 Achilles, I believe other motion parts from 45562 Alberta. And the whistle from a Claughton. So it's a New-Build, but using recycled components - which doesn't make it 100% New-Build. It's good to se bits left over from the donor Jubilees will live on and earn their keep doing what they once did on the big railway too...

    Richard.
     
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  10. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

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    The whistle is not from a Claughton. It's an LNWR whistle that was never used, it was from the spares as such.

    We have a front wheel set from an 8F, some motion from Achilles, Alberta, Galatea and Patriot Fleetwood. And parts from the original tenders including the wheelsets. I think there may be a few other bits as well to be honest.

    For me i don't care what people call them, I will call 5551 a new build. The fact that it is using some parts that happen to fit and be surplus to requirements elsewhere are irrelevant. 90% of this loco at least are new and without them this wouldn't be going ahead. We didn't start the project on the basis of there is a spare part that could be used to make XX. It just happened that after we launched the project people started coming forward with offers.

    But what ever you want to call them, let's hope that it's not long before they are all running up and down heritage railways and the mainline in the not to distant future. And I'm sure that there will be a few Gala organisers really looking forward to having some new items to draw the crowds!
     
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  11. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    It's as if we don't have any original bits on Tornado...

    ...except we do. Both the chime whistle is ex-A4 (Golden Eagle) and the LNER standard whistle is ex-A1 (Kestrel).

    When she was on test at the GCR in 2008 it was a sobering thought to think that the LNER whistle being used was likely the same one my late grandfather had heard at Copley Hill shed all those years ago. Somehow it brought him closer to me that day.

    ***

    In any event, it doesn't matter. They're going to be brilliant when they're done. I'd rather like to see a number of them down at the Bluebell one day, so I can indulge in some big chufferitis on the Pullmans...!
     
  12. segillum

    segillum New Member

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    For what it's worth my memory of the ones shedded at Nuneaton just before withdrawal is of shrill whistles.
     
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  13. Richard Roper

    Richard Roper Member

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    I hadn't realised that parts came from such diverse donors - Or that the whistle was unused. It's nice to keep learning things!
    Like you, I'm not in the least bit bothered what 5551 will be classed as - To me it's the next Patriot, and that's all that matters!

    Richard.
     
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  14. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    At the risk of yet more thread drift...

    I’d agree with you about “renewals” of the GWS new builds had they been done by the GWR (or BR) with continuity of capital stock list. However, since they are being done by an entirely unrelated entity, they have to count as additions to capital stock of the new entity, and are therefore new builds. In that light, reusing frames and other components is not substantively different from making them - in accounting terms it’s just so many tons of steel and it doesn’t really matter whether they reached the “goods inward” bay as slabs of plate or a complete set of frames. The old company wrote them off for scrap, and the new company has thriftily saved some cash by careful rooting round a scrap pile.

    Returning slightly from accountancy whimsy, FWIW, “Beachy Head” is becoming a new asset on the Bluebell’s capital register, paid for as capital investment by the PLC. Each year, the capital value of the loco goes up by the amount invested that year. I assume that once in service, there will then be some depreciation each year according to an agreed formula.

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2018
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  15. huochemi

    huochemi Well-Known Member Friend

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    Quoting from your own accounts:

    "The company exercises judgement to determine useful lives and residual values of property, plant and equipment. The assets are depreciated to their estimated residual values over their estimated useful lives." (it is unfortunate that the terms "property, plant and equipment" are not the terms the railway uses in the published accounts to analyse its fixed assets but presumably this is the auditor's boilerplate)

    "It is the Railway's policy to maintain its collection of rolling stock in full working order and all routine maintenance costs are charged to the Profit and Loss account when incurred. The rolling stock is therefore deemed to have indeterminate lives and the directors do not consider it appropriate to charge depreciation.

    Where a major renovation or overhaul or new construction of an item of rolling stock is carried out the costs incurred are capitalised as fixed assets. Where a major renovation or overhaul has been completed on an item of rolling stock that remains the property of an independent owners group, where a long term hire agreement is in place between the company and the owners group, the costs incurred by the company are capitalised as fixed assets and are depreciated on a straight line basis over the expected useful economic life."

    The second sentence of the first of these two paragraphs is a non-sequitur, as it is most unlikely that routine maintenance costs (assuming I understand how they use that term) would be capitalised, so its "indeterminate life" does not come into it here. The first sentence of the second paragraph implies that major overhauls are indeed capitalised, and although the policy does not say this, one assumes that such capitalised costs for owned locos are also depreciated as for long term hire locos. Otherwise, in time, as a loco has multiple overhauls, its book value gets ever greater, which sounds a bit odd i.e. if one capitalises, the norm is to also depreciate. (As an aside, the Talyllyn Railway is a bit of an exception as it hardly capitalises anything, even major overhaul costs, and most such costs go through the P&L, so it does not need to provide significant depreciation). As the Bluebell PLC accounts do in fact show a charge for depreciation of rolling stock, I assume the explanation given in the accounts is a rather, shall we say, "abridged" version of the policy. But if one takes note of the enigmatic Heritage Assets note in 9, it could mean that there is a hybrid policy such that the original cost is never depreciated but any subsequent capitalisation is. (???)

    Exploring the Beachy Head accounting, donations made to the Bluebell Trust, are donated by the Trust to the PLC, who own the loco. The contra entry to the donation appears to be an increase in the specific Atlantic reserve in the PLC's accounts. The policy is stated thus "Donations received in respect of specific capital expenditure are credited to reserves and released to the profit and loss account over the anticipated useful lives of the assets concerned in accordance with the 'tangible fixed assets and depreciation' accounting policy."
    (the reference to the depreciation policy here reinforces my assumption that (at least some of the) capitalised, owned rolling stock is indeed depreciated, as this statement otherwise makes no sense)

    As Tom effectively notes, a rather bigger factor with the current preserved railways is the different entities involved with loco ownership, which rather influences how to account for expenditure, as does the source of the cash to meet that expenditure. But referring to an owned loco, I suspect for the majority of lines, major costs are capitalised (i.e. treated as capex) and depreciated as for other fixed assets, as that is going to be the average auditor's starting point, with routine maintenance costs expensed through P&L immediately. For most organisations, there would be no difference in accounting treatment whether the asset was incremental, major repair of an existing, or a replacement. The difference between repair/replacement on the one hand, and incremental capex however can be useful for planning and budgeting, on the basis that it is generally assumed that incremental capex can be deferred if necessary whereas repair/replacement cannot.
     
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  16. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    We'll tie ourselves in knots using the same word for different things if we're not careful. I think I was being sloppy... I was thinking that GWS is replacing Maindy Hall with Lady of Legend = renewal. But of course Maindy Hall was purchased - presumably a capital purchase *if* I understand this stuff correctly - as a Barry wreck. The capital value when purchased is a lot less than the capital value Lady of Legend will have when complete.
     
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  17. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

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  18. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

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    Engineering up-date - July 2018
    Submitted by Kevin West on 2 September, 2018 - 21:36
    Locomotive Frame Assembly
    Work continues on the construction of The Unknown Warrior at number of locations.

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    The Unknown Warrior at Llangollen. Photo – Kevin West

    Following the report in the last Warrior we have seen work re-started at Llangollen Railway Engineering, but not at the speed we had hoped. At least progress is being made.

    We continue to work with Llangollen Engineering to establish a work schedule for the completion of the locomotive chassis.

    Locomotive Chassis
    Work has restarted on the locomotive chassis over the last few weeks and parts continue to arrive at Llangollen for fitting in the future.

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    The Exhaust Blast Pipe and Cap following painting. Photo – Kevin West

    The Clothing Bands around the Cylinder Relief Valve Mountings are being trimmed before the mounting holes are drilled and tapped into the cylinder castings.

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    A selection of Clothing Bands below the RH Cylinder. Photo – Kevin West

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    Dan offers up a Band following trimming to check for fit. Photo – Kevin West

    The Sand Pipes from the Sandboxes down to the guns by the Driving Wheels have all been formed to shape, fitted to the chassis and painted.

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    The Sand Pipes after fitting to the chassis. Photos – Kevin West

    The Splashers over the trailing Bogie Wheel have been fitted to the Locomotive frame and the underside of the Lower Slidebar.

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    Bogie Splasher in position. Photo – Kevin West

    The inside of the cab has received the first coat of the correct red below waist height. David Hughes is now experimenting on how to obtain the correct scrumbled (wood grain) effect for the cream section above.

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    Cab interior with the Drain Cock Operating Lever prominent. Photo – Kevin West

    The drivers and fireman’s seat bases and pivots have been delivered and painted.

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    Design for the Injector Water Cock operating Levers and Brackets has been completed and these will be cast in the near future. The Coal Slacking Cock is also under way.

    The Inside Front Cylinder Cover is being prepared for fitting.

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    Inside Front Cylinder Cover. Photo – Kevin West

    Pistons, Valves and Motion
    Work presently being undertaken includes refurbishment of the legacy motion obtained for use on The Unknown Warrior. This includes replacement of the bushes where required.

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    One of the Outside Combination Levers showing the original, worn bushes and Oil Rings. Photo – Kevin West

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    After refurbishment with replacement bushes and Oil Rings. Photo – Kevin West

    The new Inside Combination Lever was made to the design and details on an original North British Locomotive Company drawing for the Royal Scot class. Most of the motion parts are identical on the Royal Scot, Patriot and Jubilee classes. Once the new part was delivered to Llangollen and compared to the existing legacy parts obtained for the Unknown Warrior from Jubilee’s, a number of modifications that must have been made in the locomotive’s lift time became apparent. These primarily concerned the lubrication arrangements of the bronze bushes. The original design has just a plain bronze bush pressed into the steel rod.

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    New Inside Combination Lever as made to original 1927 design. Photo – Kevin West

    The legacy parts showed a later design, where the rods are counter bored around the bush and additional bronze Oil Rings are added. These provide additional side thrust bearing area. The new Inside Combination Lever is being modified to incorporate these Oil Rings.

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    Inside Combination Lever with Oil Rings positioned to show modified design. Photo – Kevin West

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    An Outside Radius Rod following fitting a new bronze bush to remove wear in the original Rod. Photo – Kevin West.

    The inside Big End is being prepared for final fitting to the Crank Axle. The Oil Caps and wells are being finished on the leading end of the Outside Eccentric Rods.

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    Inside Big End and Outside Eccentric Rods. The large Coupling Rod at the rear is from GWR 2-8-0 No 3802. Photo – Kevin West

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    A selection of motion parts in the machine shop at Llangollen, including the Inside Radius Rod in the center. Photo – Kevin West

    The Outside Radius Rods have had the Lifting Arm Slots checked and measured which will allow drawings to be produced for the Die Blocks.

    On the Connecting Rods, the Little and Big End Bushes are being machined and white metaled. The white metal forms the actual bearing surface against the Crank Pins. This soft material is heated until molten and then poured into the bearing bronze. The inside of the bearing bronze is serrated to provide a key for the white metal. Once the white metal has cooled and solidified it is machined to the correct clearance to the Crank Pin. Unfortunately, sometimes during this process, the white metal does not fully adhere to the bronze and ‘pulls away’ as it cools. This happened to one of our bushes and the white metal had to be removed and re-done.

    The replacement Reverser Shaft Castings have been delivered and are now being machined.

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    The Intermediate Reverser Shaft Casting. Photo – Kevin West

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    The Reverser Shaft Castings await machining. Photo – Kevin West

    The Cab Reverser Unit is almost complete and ready for assembly. The nut and leadscrew are being machined as this report is written, following delays due to machine breakdowns and staff holidays!

    The Return Cranks have been trial fitted to the Crank Pins, which has shown up an issue with the keyways on the Crank Pins. Discussions are now underway with the suppliers, South Devon Railway Engineering regarding work required.

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    LH Driving Wheel and Return Crank. Photo – Kevin West

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    LH Crank Pin. Photo – Kevin West

    Castings for the bronze Piston Rod Glands have been delivered and are away for machining. Drawings for the Cast Iron gland packings, springs, covers and squab boxes have been completed and quotes obtained for casting and machining.

    Boiler
    Construction of the boiler for the Unknown Warrior continues to make good progress at Heritage Boiler Steam Services.

    Work had progressed on the Outer Firebox with both the Doorplate and Throatplate trial fitted to the Wrapper and the rivet holes drilled in both. The Wrapper has had all the Stay hole positions marked and pilot drilled, nearly 1000 of them! The Foundation Ring rivet holes have been drilled as well.

    The next stage has seen the Doorplate riveted to the Wrapper.

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    The Outer Firebox Wrapper showing the Doorplate riveted in position. Photo – Kevin West

    The next big development was the trial fitting of the Inner Firebox and Foundation Ring into the Outer Wrapper and Doorplate.

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    The front view of the Firebox showing the Inner Firebox and Foundation Ring in position. Photo – Kevin West

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    Close up view showing the Inner Firebox in position. Photo – Kevin West

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    A view of the of the Firebox Crown showing the stay holes drilled in each plate. The Crown stays will be fitted in these holes to support the 2 plates against the boiler pressure. Photo – Kevin West

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    A view showing the Outer Throateplate in position. The Inner Firebox can be seen inside. Photo – Heritage Boiler Steam Services

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    All the major components of the Firebox and barrel outside the Heritage Boiler Steam Services workshop at the Midland Railway Centre. Photo – Kevin West

    Heritage Boiler Steam Services are now in the process of moving from the West Shed to their own premises in the North West. This will be closer to the staff’s homes and also a larger workshop to allow greater flexibility for the boiler work.

    The next major milestone will see the locomotive chassis and the Boiler components come together in the autumn to establish all the alignments and allow the barrel to be fitted to the Firebox. This work will be undertaken in private due to the nature of the heavy lifting and precision required, but it is expected that an event for members will be held to enable viewing of the locomotive with the boiler temporarily fitted. Details of the location and date will be given to members once known.

    Brake System and Lubrication System
    Work continues on installing the lubrication system pipework. Work has been concentrated around the Inside Cylinder and on installing the pipe runs from the Oil Boxes.

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    Some of the pipe runs on the RH side of the locomotive during installation. Photo – Kevin West

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    Neat pipe runs to the bulkhead on the rear of the Inside Cylinder. Photo – Kevin West

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    An area that is not normally seen, as it is behind a cover. The lubrication pipes for the Inside Cylinder Valve Chest. This is a continuation of the pipe runs shown in the previous picture. Photo – Kevin West

    We have recently contracted completion of the Lubrication system to Nigel Day. Nigel is a highly respected steam engineer and has recently overseen the complete rebuilding of the locomotive River Esk at the Ravenglass & Eskdale Railway. The locomotive was extensively damaged in a major fire in the railway’s workshop in which only a few original parts survived for re-use.

    All parts for the Locomotive Brake Cylinder are now at Llangollen ready for final assembly. Once this has been undertaken the Cylinder can be mounted under the Drag Box.

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    Brake Cylinder Piston ready for assembly into the Body. Photo – Kevin West

    Refurbishment of the original 9” Tender Brake Cylinder from 8F 48518 continues at Harco Engineering.



    Drain Cock Gear, Cylinder Relief Valves & Sanding Gear
    The replacement casing castings for the Cylinder Relief Valves have been delivered and are being machined. Once complete they will be delivered to the Valve company in Gloucester for assembly and testing, before delivery of the completed valves to Llangollen for fitting to the Cylinders.

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    Replacement Relief Valve Casings on the right, alongside a pair of Piston Rod Gland castings. The pattern for the 3 Drain Cock bodies we require is the red piece to the right. Photo – Kevin West

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    Relief Valve Casings and Piston Rod Gland castings. The rectangular Cast Iron part at the top centre is a bogie centre casting for a 15” gauge Bassett-Lowke pacific! Photo – Kevin West

    Once this is complete the remaining Drain Cock Operating Gear can be assembled and tested.

    Fittings
    We are waiting to take delivery of the Steam Heating Valves from Tyseley before the mounting brackets can be designed and manufactured.

    Work is in progress to source the many other fitting that are required to finish the locomotive.

    Tender

    Work had continued with holes being countersunk in readiness for riveting the chassis. A sequence is being worked to determine in which order parts are attached to make sure tools can be accessed to undertake the work.

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    Tender Outside Frames with newly countersunk holes. Photo – Kevin West

    Discussions continue with various parties regarding riveting the chassis and completion to a rolling chassis.

    We are also in detailed discussions with a number of possible suppliers of the new Tender Tank.

    Future Work Planning
    Areas of existing design work include, Boiler Cladding Sheets, Cab Footplate structure and Tender Tank.
     
  19. Kinghambranch

    Kinghambranch Well-Known Member

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    Wonderful progress, many thanks for the update. I am so impressed with what you are doing and I'm sure I'm not alone in this regard.
     
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  20. sir gilbert claughton

    sir gilbert claughton Active Member

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    they were fitted with LNWR whistles . some may have later acquired a LMS hooter .
    the Pats were often used on night parcels trains . they would always whistle when running thro' Harrow
     
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