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LMS Patriot Project Updates

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Gav106, Apr 10, 2011.

  1. crantock

    crantock Member

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    If the foundry has cast 6 out of 6 failures, isn’t there a risk they decide its beyond their ability? I suppose its a question of 1 mistake 6 times or multiple mistakes.


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  2. Davo

    Davo Well-Known Member

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    So now is this true what im hearing are the LMS patriot project saying that all the components on the loco frames are going to have to be stripped down just to check to see if the frames dont have any cracks or wrong diameter sized bolts like what was found holding the cylinders in place on the frames? It just gets better and better all the disheartening news were hearing about the pat project at this rate it's going to be 10 years when the 5551 loco turns its wheels in anger, think I'm quitting been a member and a donator to this failed new build project. Best of british luck and engineering expertise to the 5551 LMS pat project cos there going to need it at this rate and lose more members trust sorry to say.:(:mad: even:Morewaitingisrequired:
     
  3. estwdjhn

    estwdjhn Member

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    I think six pretty much identical failures almost certainly means an issue with the pattern/mould design. Not necessarily a big one - often this sort of issue merely requires an extra riser or feeder and it's sorted - good patternmakers/foundrymen will usually size up the failures and have a pretty good idea what is needed to get a better result next time.
    There is an element of random luck to castings, but there is a certain sort of repeatability too, good and bad.

    I'd imagine that they cast the first one, had it X-rayed, and when it was signed off as OK proceeded to do the others - had there been issues found on X-ray, things would have been altered before attempting the next one.

    If the X-ray was ordered to an appropriate specification etc, I would think that the NDT firm which did the work are liable to be in a lot of hot water. That said, I'm surprised that X-ray was felt to be appropriate for a casting of this size.
    I had some issues with unwanted voids appearing in some much smaller steel castings. The problem area was a solid round section about 2" diameter and 3.5" long. When I took some samples round, my local NDT outfit said that this was on the limits of what they could penetrate with their X-ray source and get meaningful results (what they found was actually very helpful in diagnosing the problem).
    I would have thought that the boss area of a mainline wheel would be too thick to get useful results by X-ray - but I may be wrong, it's not my area of expertise.
     
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  4. bluetrain

    bluetrain Member

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    A prior post also indicated that the main frames were delivered as long ago as 2009.

    A question for a reader with legal knowledge. How long is there a liability for a supplier to provide replacement or compensation for defective products? My understanding is that it is 6 years for a contract under English Law, in which case the Patriot project may have already lost any legal entitlement in respect of parts delivered or work undertaken prior to 2015. Suppliers may of course still accept liability for earlier defective work and make ex-gratia payments, but that would be voluntary.

    There may also be the question of proving that recently discovered defects were wholly present in 2009, 2012 or whenever, and have not been worsened by any corrosion during the intervening years.
     
  5. jnc

    jnc Well-Known Member

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    Could be a process failure, too. (E.g. cooling.)

    Noel
     
  6. osprey

    osprey Resident of Nat Pres

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    I can't answer that, as I have no knowledge or sight of the contract. If you have, all well and good. You are speaking with prior knowledge.
     
  7. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    The wheel sets were not assembled at Llangollen.
     
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  8. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

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    I have to say, Reading half of what's written here you don't half make up some good stories and add 2+2 and come up with 732.
     
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  9. 2392

    2392 Well-Known Member

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    Whilst I quite agree Gav. It's all part and parcel of a forum like this........... Which is what makes it so interesting.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2021
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  10. marshall5

    marshall5 Well-Known Member

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    The same pattern was used to cast the replacement wheels for Galatea without a problem AFAIK .
    Ray.
     
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  11. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    If I have read correctly post appears to suggest that there was an independent inspector. Boro had an independent company verify the castings but the xrays they made were of such a poor quality that errors were not picked up.

    So if I have it right:

    Warrior accepted the wheels because they trusted Boro when Boro say the wheels have been verified independently, Boro trusted that the independent verifiers had done their job. It appears that the independent verifiers did not do their job properly.

    It seems to me to be a repeat of the FS report about the cottage industry, where everyone is dependent on others doing their job.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2021
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  12. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    That is kinda how civilisation works...
     
  13. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    Which is why you have a big f-ing problem when people don't.
     
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  14. jnc

    jnc Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure you've been upset to discover that humans aren't perfect, but fallible beings.

    Look, I get that it's been very upsetting and disheartening to discover that major mistakes were made (in some cases, apparently through lack of knowledge, such as the frame de-scaling; the wheels, we're waiting on more investigation), and that as a result, there will be delays, more work, and more expense. But, as the man said, "to err is human".

    The important questions are 'has the team building the Warrior made internal changes to greatly reduce the chances of similar problems in the future' (yes, done quite a while ago), and 'is there a viable path forward to recovery and eventual success' (apparently yes, the details are being worked out).

    As @35B said, 'look forward, not back'.

    Noel
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2021
  15. Sheff

    Sheff Resident of Nat Pres

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    Sorry I didn’t make myself clear there. Yes the inspector was ‘independent’ but they were engaged by, and reported to, the manufacturer, not the client.


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  16. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Fair comment, but I think the FS report comment, and what it says about the structural weaknesses of preservation engineering, still stands.
     
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  17. W.Williams

    W.Williams Well-Known Member

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    Manifestly not.

    Tornado, P2, a certain pair of Black 5's West Shed, SNG, Clan Line, Aviemore are just a few examples of highly professional engineering, without any caveat required. Preservation or otherwise.

    You can X-Ray a whole Trent XWB if you have the means, going rate is about £150m. See Rolls-Royce recently opened Test Bed 80.

    I too am surprised X-Ray was the NDT of choice here. I would have though DPI per above update was the initial default position.

    Is it not the case that for X-Ray you really need to put it in a box....a wheel isn't exactly small....

    Then again, whats the point in asking any of this.

    Boro have a reputation that I suspect they may like to uphold and it sounds like they are engaged and collaborating.

    That is the method by which you get through these issues.
     
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  18. jnc

    jnc Well-Known Member

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    Hmm. If so, not an issue with the pattern (unless it was tweaked in between); and if not, had to be something in the process (maybe the temp of the liquid material before it was poured, or the cooling, or something like that), or perhaps some detail in the composition of the material (my knowledge of casting is close to zilch ;-). Well, I'm happy to wait for the experts at Boro to work out what the issue was.

    Does anyone happen to know where Galatea's wheels were cast? Even if it was at Boro, they may have had some person with key knowledge retire, or something. (For casting 4709's cylinders, some techniques had to be re-developed - "the team re-engineered the casting process for steam cylinders with poly patterns from first principles" - although there the issue apparently was centered on the use of poly patterns.)

    Noel
     
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  19. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Indeed they are. But that is in the context of what that report described as a cottage industry, and where the supply chain lacks strength in depth. It has limited capacity for that supply chain to absorb the impact of mistakes, and limited numbers of volunteers, expert or otherwise.

    That is not a criticism of any individuals, but a reflection on just how much has been achieved on very limited resources over the last 60 years or so.

    I would love to see this problem attributed back to cause, and suitable remedies applied. But, especially given the time that’s passed, that’s both unrealistic and would require a shift of focus from progressing the project to fighting a compensation case. That won’t help get Unknown Warrior built, and could even jeopardise the project further.


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  20. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Most kind, but the caveat I would put in is that we are only as strong as our engineering volunteers: of which we at MNLPS are very lucky and have a great many excellent individuals led by our talented and experienced Messers Easson and Ellick.

    Getting good people is the issue for any charity/project/business: I feel strongly that the Patriot has suffered from compliance and inspection issues, based on my reading. These things are all largely fixable, if you put the right people in now and have a good plan.
     

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