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Loco musings ex the 71000 thread

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by m&gn50, Feb 25, 2013.

  1. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Well-Known Member

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    No.

    Now that would upset my colleagues in the Stanier Mogul Fund!
     
  2. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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  3. Sheff

    Sheff Part of the furniture

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  4. QLDriver

    QLDriver New Member

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  5. Sheff

    Sheff Part of the furniture

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    I think the 'styling' was always open to debate - I don't know how the 'look' was arrived at, but I never saw it as a big issue - it's a bit akin to paint. The desire as I saw it when I got involved was to produce a loco to suit the demands of the main line steam tour industry. In the end it wasn't intended for series production to challenge other forms of motive power, (otherwise you'd go down the ACE3000 route or similar) - basically it needs to go chuff. The 8AT was a different matter, being aimed at particualr 3rd world countries with abundant coal reserves. I must add that this is entirely my view, and may not reflect that of Wardale or the 5AT group in earlier times.
     
  6. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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  7. John Stewart

    John Stewart Part of the furniture

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    More to the point, when was the picture taken - would give some kind of clue as to the Bugatti/ A4 esque influence on the front end![/quote]

    I would say 1937 to 1938, but probably not in Algeria. There is a photo of the same loco on page 102 of "Garratt Locomotives of the World" (A. E. Durrant, Bracken Books, 1981, ISBN 1 85170 141 9) showing it on test at Calais Maritime at the head of an express to Paris. The background architecture has some similarities; it could be elsewhere at Calais or it could be that French Railway architecture was as universal to the colonies as to Metropolitan France.

    One of the same class attained 82mph on a run between Paris and Calais and recorded 3000dbhp at Survilliers. In Algeria speeds of up to 75mph were scheduled with 60mph averages over 171 miles. The inevitable neglect during the war, with recourse to diesels thereafter, led to the class being extinct by 1951.
     
  8. Duty Druid

    Duty Druid Resident of Nat Pres

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    OK, but which one?...................................................... would make a change to frothing over what shade of paint! :confused:
     
  9. 242A1

    242A1 Active Member

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    N.Z.R. class H first built in 1875. Lasted until the end of the line. Trains used up to five locomotives each being loaded to a maximum of 65 tons. You would start with the lead engine, add up to the 65 ton mark and then add a second engine and then the allowed load and so on. So a heavy train was in effect a series of small ones all coupled together. Little wonder alternatives were looked into, occasionally tried, found wanting, and so the last train was one with five of the six class H locomotives. The late Derek Cross was on board.

    On the subject of use of power I always find it very useful for acceleration. It is also very useful for maintaining speed on climbs. The 240P could produce the 40ihp per ton of locomotive weight. The French railways had for many years a legal problem with respect to maximum speeds. So the only solution to the demand for shorter journey times open to them was a combination of better acceleration and the ability to maintain speed. Reducing the train loads was neither an acceptable nor realistic alternative. British locomotives lacked the power output that would have allowed them to work in the French fashion other than on very restricted loads.
     
  10. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    I would say 1937 to 1938, but probably not in Algeria. There is a photo of the same loco on page 102 of "Garratt Locomotives of the World" (A. E. Durrant, Bracken Books, 1981, ISBN 1 85170 141 9) showing it on test at Calais Maritime at the head of an express to Paris. The background architecture has some similarities; it could be elsewhere at Calais or it could be that French Railway architecture was as universal to the colonies as to Metropolitan France.

    One of the same class attained 82mph on a run between Paris and Calais and recorded 3000dbhp at Survilliers. In Algeria speeds of up to 75mph were scheduled with 60mph averages over 171 miles. The inevitable neglect during the war, with recourse to diesels thereafter, led to the class being extinct by 1951.[/quote]


    Who's not following the thread in full? A few posts back I gave the date in answer to DD. It's 5-4-1939.
     
  11. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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  12. QLDriver

    QLDriver New Member

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    One advantage (amongst the many disadvantages!) of having multiple locos spread through the train is that it's easier on the drawgear of the rolling stock - there's less stress on the first coupling in the train, as it's only having to hold the load back to the next loco.
     
  13. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I'm well aware of the class - I was standing not 1µm away from the photographer when the photo I linked to was taken!

    If anyone is interested in photos of the preserved Fell engine and brake van, and an extract from the rule book governing the loadings for different numbers of engines and brake vans - see here http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamessquared/sets/72157633444044502/ and read the captions! The controls are interesting, with separate regulators for the "conventional" and "Fell" engines on the locomotive; also three separate controls for the fireman (respectively a handbrake for conventional shoes on the wheels; for a sled brake on the centre rail; and a tensioning spring for the Fell wheels) which all conflict in space, so they have a detachable hand wheel that can be moved manually from control to control.

    Tom
     
  14. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Not the most conventional Royal Train in history!

    The two locos on the extreme right of the picture are at Cross Creek, which is where southbound trains stopped for remarshalling to go over the incline; after turning and servicing, they will work a northbound service back.

    Once at the summit, the whole train had to be remarshalled into one consist for continued working southbound. Allowing for all the remarshalling at both ends, it probably took about two hours to traverse three miles of line! The descent down the other side was conventionally worked, though still had considerable sections at a gradient of 1:35 - 1:40 for many miles on end.

    Tom
     
  15. John Stewart

    John Stewart Part of the furniture

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    The Fell Museum at Featherston is a pleasant little museum in the town centre and does a nice line in NZ railway tea towels; a aircraft weight-friendly present for the folks back in the UK. Having studied the whole system my mind went to the description of the Moulton bicycle: "An ingenious solution to a problem of his own invention". Even by the standards of 1870s New Zealand, a longer tunnel, half the gradient and a big banker should have been a more economical solution. It seems another of those wrong decisions on technology that soon had commercial disadvantages, rather like the British railways that installed level crossings at every road because employing the peasantry as gatemen was just so cheap.
     
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  16. m&gn50

    m&gn50 New Member

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    Much as we may like steam (and believe me, from my limited experience it is bloody hard work!), we have just got to recognise (5AT group notwithstanding) that the steam locomotive has come to the end of its development. Over the whole world this has been recognised.[/quote]

    Only because we are currently an oil economy dominated by oil money, a hopeless situation we just can't end.
    Now a small portable tangerine sized nuclear fusion generator driving a steam turbine, a cheap kit of parts, if the fusion was easy.
    Perchance to dream...
     
  17. irwellsteam

    irwellsteam Active Member

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    Tom, do you happen to know of any web links where I could read up on that Maunsell 4-6-2+2-6-4 please, particularly if anyone has come up with some photoshop or such like of what it might have looked like? Sounds a fascinating might-have-been
     
  18. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I'm sure a while ago I found a picture of an oo model someone had built, and now I can't find the photo for love nor money!

    There is a description and basic line drawing in "Locomotives of the Southern Railway Vol 1" by Don Bradley - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Locomotives-Southern-Railway-Pt-1/dp/0901115304 or ISBN 0901115304 from your favourite second hand book shop.

    Dimensionally, the power units were closely based on the Maunsell 4 cylinder Pacific proposal (abandoned due to the high estimated cost and low numbers required). That pacific was in turn quite closely related to a Lord Nelson, especially E859 (the small-wheeled Lord Nelson) with the addition of a wide firebox and a trailing truck. The Garratt proposal however was only six cylinder (so three on each power unit), so more akin to a Schools class - the cylinder size is basically the same, give or take 1/2" on diameter, though with bigger diameter valves.

    The drawing shows a Belpaire firebox and boiler with two parallel rings. The boiler dimensions are bigger than a Lord Nelson boiler, especially in diameter - the length is the same, so it looks quite stubby but I suspect that is an illusion caused by the huge diameter. Hard to tell from the drawing but the firebox looks to be semi-narrow, fitting between the bearer frames (but which are wider apart than conventional loco frames, so not a completely narrow firebox); however, without an axle to get in the way, the grate slopes at a constant angle, eliminating the part-level, part-sloping grate of the Lord Nelson that was probably one of the causes of the firing problems associated with that class.

    In as much as there is any detail, the rest of the loco (tanks and bunker) look typical Beyer-Peacock in design. The cab also looks decidedly un-Southern.

    Apart from the Beyer-Garratt, there were quite a number of proposals that never got built, especially of big engines. These include the 4 cylinder pacific referred to above; a 4 cylinder compound version of the Lord Nelson (dropped on account of the cost of conversion); a heavy goods 4-8-0 with a Lord Nelson boiler that got as far as being allocated numbers (dropped because tests showed that the sidings and loops were too short for the size of trains that the loco could handle; the final batch of S15s were built instead); and a wide firebox mixed-traffic 2-6-2 similar in concept to a Gresley V2 (rejected by the Civil Engineer). See http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/46226-maunsell-proposed480/ for a picture of the 4-8-0.

    Tom
     
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  19. Steamboat Bill

    Steamboat Bill New Member

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    Can't say anything about preservation, but as a passed cleaner a Crewe South I was lucky enough to fire one of them on the 01.10 Crewe SSM to Carnforth class 6 frieght. This train was diagrammed to a Stanier 8F, and it wasn't far short of a full load on this morning either - 62 = 66 = 69 - but the loco handled it superbly - with a lot of help from Driver Lance Cooper, who "knew how to handle them". The run included an almost dead stand in the platform at Wigan N-W, but the loco really took Boar's head Bank in style.

    When a fireman at Carnforth, I took over one of them again at Preston on the Manchester-Heysham boat train, and again, it was a flier. But then every loco Ted Fothergill drove 'flew'...He was economical too.

    May not be quite what you wanted, but a little more to add to the background of what to me was a good engine.
     
  20. Steamboat Bill

    Steamboat Bill New Member

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    As a cleaner at Crewe South, I fired some of these ex-Crostis which, afair, were still in fact classified as class 9F (I certainly never heard them referred to in any other way). However, the general opinion of the drivers was that they were little better than a good Midland 4. The reason is that to allow for the pre-heater barrel underneath the steam boiler, this was very much smaller. Hence although it could still haul a class 9 load, it couldn't evaporate nearly enough water to maintain the speeds expected of a 'proper' class 9. And if the driver DID try to maintain these speeds, the result was inevitable: shortage of steam.

    My personal view is that to spend money on trying to recreate a "Crosti 9" would be a total waste of money better spent on recreating the Fowler 2-6-4T mentioned elsewhere, or a V1/V3, or pehaps a Billinton K1 - one of the prettiest little engines to have reached the 1960s and have 'escaped' preservation. Who, seriously, would offer good money to see the "Turbomotive" recreated?

    Which reminds me: on the Princess Anne and City of Glasgow question raised elsewhere, my conjecture is that CoG may have been rebuilt as it was closer to standard than Princess Anne: just my idea.
     

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