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LSL Ltd / Icons of Steam fleet

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by 26D_M, Jul 21, 2017.

  1. martin1656

    martin1656 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Could that route knowledge be covered by an footplate inspector, who then in turn will pass on that knowledge to crews? that way you will gain the knowledge needed over time the inspector could be a recently retiree from a mainline TOC
     
  2. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

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    Is a company owner covered by the WTD as I can't see how you can elect to opt out as a normal employee can. Do you simply write to the coampany, i.e. you and state you want to opt out. In a sales type field job it was quite impossible for me to work to a 48 hour week, I don't think any of us actually opted out but just ignored it.
     
  3. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    He doesn't have to be, but there's the paradox: I own the company, but I am also an employee of that company - I am on its payroll. So if I say "all employees will abide by the WTD" as the owner, as an employee I abide by the WTD. Trust me, there's a lot to being the owner of a limited company that seems nonsensical and paradoxical, but it's all above board. As they say, an accountant is someone you pay to find a solution to a problem you never knew you had...

    Of course, the WTD business may all be moot in a couple of years' time! Already I hear rumblings via my accountant of a potentially higher rate of Corporation Tax than the current 20% for small companies post-2019, but as low as 12% for the big hitters like Apple, Google &c.

    The major difference between the liabilities of sole trader versus limited company that I omitted is that of debt. If a sole trader's company collapses owing large amounts of money, all his assets can be used to recover the debt - and that could include the family home, for example. This does not apply to a Limited Company. Plenty of guides on the Internet that explain it way better than me!
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2017
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  4. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Interestingly some Irish Rail drivers have been under WC tutelage at NYMR recently, at least one for passing out as steam driver on IE for RPSI tours.
     
  5. Big Al

    Big Al Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    I presume so as route conductors are used occasionally by DBC but common sense suggests that the best/safest option should be a driver who is on the route regularly and then takes a steam loco along it. I'm sure that a local heritage driver could step off a Manor on the WSR and drive a Manor on the SVR the following day. But how many times would they have to be 'conducted' up and down the SVR before they could claim as detailed knowledge of the SVR as they have of the WSR? Now apply that to the main line and someone new to a route plus, of course, the infrastructure and pace of the national network
     
  6. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    How do you think your prophecy of doom differs from the situation that has prevailed in recent times prior to LSL expansion?
    Let us recollect one man was able to bring a halt to the steam haulage of a charter not long ago simply because allegedly he did not want a particular loco to haul a train containing coaches owned by his company.
     
  7. claud hamilton

    claud hamilton New Member

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    Windmill Bridge it is indeed ! Halfway between Longstanton and Swavesey Stations with Britannia heading towards the later .
     
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  8. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Again this was another matter that was covered in the various paperwork associated with the WCRC suspension, I don't recall the final outcome but this along with zero hour contracts was an area that seemed to cause ORR some concern and I suspect further encouraged the WCRC decision recently reached to keep work closer to home where they are very busy and not out on a limb geographically, as employing drivers on contracts which guarantee hours, on routes you rarely use and thus having to do sufficient refreshing is going to seriously boost the cost base compared with a zero hours model. Have IoS given any indication that they plan to operate on a wider spot hire basis ala WCRC which will often provide the opportunity to keep crews route knowledge fresh via non steam work?

    Its no doubt going to improve the operation of the market, although this prevailing idea that LSL is going to revolutionise things is going to take some time and serious cash.
     
  9. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Just for my own edification: for mainline steam services: from a formal point of view, do both the driver and fireman need route knowledge, or just the driver?

    Tom
     
  10. ruddingtonrsh56

    ruddingtonrsh56 Member

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    I would imagine the fireman would require some route knowledge, perhaps not in as much detail as drivers, but at least some would be required to know things like gradients and speed restrictions which will impact fire management. They would probably also need to know signal locations, especially if they're on curves which would make it difficult for drivers to see them, and bear in mind GW locos are right hand drive which would impact that as well if most signals are sited on the left hand side of the track.
     
  11. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I realise that for practical purposes it is useful for a fireman to know the road. But I was meaning specifically in procedural terms, i.e. what is the actual requirement as per the rules.

    Tom
     
  12. peckett

    peckett Member

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    Just complete knowledge of the rule book is required ,same as in steam days.
     
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  13. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    My take is that if there has to be a hegemony, LSL/IOS seems to be, superficially at least, actuated by higher values, principles, ambition and motives than the hitherto 'market leaders'. Whether that is just a matter of perception remains to be seen but it will make for interesting times ahead.
     
  14. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    The position of fireman doesn't exist on the big railway so there are no rules governing any requirements AFAIK it will be down to the TOC to stipulate any requirements. In times past there was no requirement for route knowledge and firemen could go anywhere.
     
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  15. Big Al

    Big Al Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    DBC has many people who are both firemen and drivers. On the Surrey Hills pullmans I believe that the crew changes sides at the water stop at Shalford. So in this example both crew members will have route knowledge on a steam loco and also through their day job.
     
  16. martin1656

    martin1656 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    In that case, though both members of the crew are also drivers in their everyday job, so have route knowledge,
    On West Coast, arn't the firemen in some cases not drivers but volunteer members , So the footplate inspector/ driver are the ones with the route knowledge, So short term, is it possible for some firemen/ drivers to accompany an LSL Driver on Deisel legs to learn routes, and step up to driver themselves once they are deemed competent? that way LSL need only a few trained drivers who are drivers, then step up to trainers / inspectors as they move foreward.
     
  17. Romsey

    Romsey Well-Known Member

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    WCR drivers will have to follow the national standard of working a train both ways over a route at least every 6 months to retain route knowledge. Some of their route knowledge cards for the WCR drivers working down south must be pretty extensive. No duties over a route for 6 months and they will need to undertake route refresher trips.
    ( Route refresher trips are a large can of worms over who they can ride with and gaining approval from the operating TOC / FOC train crew management.)

    Cheers, Neil

    PS Route knowledge is broken down into individual lines. For example Hounslow Jn to Whitton Jn is a separate route to Waterloo - Richmond - Staines and Barnes - Brentford - Hounslow Jn.
     
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  18. peckett

    peckett Member

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    Yes ,I often wonder what happens on the Midland ,London area to Kettering, the small amount of workings West Coast have over this route, it must be the same driver every time. Two or three years ago a Freightliner driver told me they were opening a signing on point at Bedford mainly for conducting track machines, so it could be something like that.
    There were things in steam days that take a bit of believing now .Leeds men only signed main line Kettering to St Pancras, any relaying on the main a conductor was required for the slow lines.
    Kentish Town (and others )men didn't sign for the short stretch from Melton Mowbray to Syston,so if work at weekends between Kettering and Leicester were taking place a conductor was required for the diversion via Manton. It was also not the done thing for a driver to sign for the route he was being conducted over ,that would be taking work from another depot, mostly Sunday work, double time as well.!
     
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  19. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    WCRC do more than just charter work. I know a WCRC driver who seems to be out most days, much of it on such mundane tasks as conducting tampers. Don't know what percentage of their work is similar, though.
     
  20. Romsey

    Romsey Well-Known Member

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    After the first suspension of WCRC by ORR, Network Rail dropped using WCR for conducting on track machines in the south and west of England. (Devon and Cornwall Railways were also out of favour after the Stafford SPAD a few years ago.) I'm not certain what the situation was after the second suspension. Perhaps the OTM operators have got better at keeping their route knowledge up together.

    Cheers, Neil
     

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