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LSWR T3 563

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by nick813, Mar 30, 2017.

  1. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Even accepting the rationale that one of those four was surplus to the requirements of the national collection, it is a lot easier to make the case that the T9 was the least significant of the four and represented the greatest duplication; and it could still have been, had it been so wished, a suitable flagship loco for Swanage based at an entirely historically appropriate line.

    Tom
     
  2. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    It strikes me that, not unreasonably, this is an area of strategy and policy that is evolving rather than this being necessarily an example of how things will always be done in in the coming years. As with many things, wrong decisions are often made for the right reasons and vice versa.
    What would be very interesting to know is if the loco collection as a whole has been subject to a strategic assessment and graded according to the outlined criteria or whether it is a case by case basis driven by circumstance.
     
  3. richards

    richards Part of the furniture

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    Tom

    What is your reasoning for this, out of interest? It's not easy for me to make this decision at all, but then I'm a northerner!

    Richard
     
  4. Bill Drewett

    Bill Drewett Member

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    If their logic seems faulty, I think it's because you've misunderstood it. Their basic approach seems to be, 'retain a collection of vehicles that best represents the varied history of railways, given the resource constraints in place'. A representative collection of 20 carriages might include only three or four wheel arrangements, but that reflects the uniformity of carriage design over the years compared with the rich variety of locomotive types.

    You seem to expect them to act as though they have a responsibility to protect 563 alone, but that's a fantasy. The reality is they have a broad range of responsibilities that they have to balance, and limited resources. From their replies to the enquiries from Spamcan81 and Tim Light I reckon they're doing a difficult job diligently and responsibly. They might have addressed people's concerns earlier in the process, but only because it would have removed the temptation from some to assume the worst.
     
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  5. Tim Light

    Tim Light Well-Known Member

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    I don't want to cut and paste the response here, as I don't have permission. Also, the response contains statements that are the respondent's opinion, as well as statements of NRM policy and practice, so I don't think he'd thank me for posting on this forum.

    One theme is to vastly improve the way exhibits are displayed and interpreted, especially at York. This doesn't mean cramming them in and hiding them behind information panels.

    Another theme is to represent the story of the post-steam era, for which space must be made.
     
  6. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Starting from the assumption that you were aiming to reduce the collection by one loco, why the T9 rather than the T3?

    1) There are three main strands of development of 4-4-0s in the country: two inside cylinders, two outside cylinders, three cylinder (with simple and compound variants of all three). The NRM had representatives of all three strands of "simples" and one of the compounds. By releasing the T3, they have got rid of their only outside cylinder example. Had they released the T9, they still have four other inside cylinder 4-4-0s, so maintain the technical breadth of the collection while reducing its size. Releasing the T3 removes the only outside cylinder 4-4-0 in the collection.

    2) @S.A.C. Martin made the point that there were four ex-SR 4-4-s, including two from the LSWR. But even so, removing the T3 removes the only example of an Adams loco in the collection (an important figure in Victorian railway locomotive engineering); whereas removing the T9 would still be one of the ex-LSWR locos, but Drummond would remain represented via the M7

    3) The T3 took a different route into preservation than the locos that were earmarked for preservation in the later 1950s - essentially it is a product of SR attempts at preservation / commemoration (albeit coming to fruition in early 1948), so again tells a differing story to some of the other locos in the collection.

    3) The T9 has also run extensively in preservation, so there is less of an argument about preserving the historic fabric

    My argument isn't that de-accessioning was wrong per se; but rather that if, as was suggested, 4-4-0s were over-represented, the T3 makes a lot more sense to remain a unique part of the national collection than the T9 would.

    Tom
     
  7. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    As regards the T9, It was overhauled by the B&W at great cost to them, and would it be fair to then take that engine away from them? it would be like say the NRM instructing the MHR to release Cheltenham , having funded its restoration , the T9 has in recent times spent time on loan at the Swanage and elsewhere, which i would say has allowed more people to see an historic engine working, for me the problem isnt the T3 its self, its the loan vs outright gift policy , if there has been a change of policy then it changes things, i can't make sence of why an engine is thought to be not relivent to the collection, then being gifted, rather than loaned, as the museum states they dont generally recall or do not re new loan agreements where the engine is shown too be in good hands.
     
  8. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Fair point, but does inside versus outside cylinders plus wheel arrangement really deem the T3 more historically relevant than the T9? Which represents the most numerous of passenger classes at one point (4-4-0, inside cylinder) and also a development of line from LSWR to Southern and British Railways over a longer period of time.

    Absolutely take your point there.

    But, and this is a question we do have to ask ourselves, how does its slightly different route into preservation make it more or less worthy of helping to tell the overall story of railways in the NRM?

    I think you have made some good points Tom, but we don't have the full reasoning of why the T3 specifically was chosen other than we know there was a process, which was fulfilled, and we have a better understanding of how as opposed why.

    Our points of view may or may not reflect similar thinking by the NRM: it would be wrong to assume that our views are any more correct than theirs.
     
  9. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Well, you could turn that around - in what way does the T9 have a unique relevance not otherwise held elsewhere in the collection? For example, if longevity through pre-grouping - grouping - nationalisation is an important story to tell, then the Wainwright D could be used equally well.

    I'm not specifically arguing that the technical argument about cylinder position trumps all others; simply that it is a factor. (And the technical story of the development of railways is a valid one, surely - even if not the only one?) So in that light, if you have one outside cylinder 4-4-0 and five inside cylinder ones, surely it is obvious where there is greater duplication?

    Again - I'm not saying it is an over riding factor. But the story of preservation is another of the facets within the overall railway story; and while there are numerous locomotives in the collection that got there via a process of identification by the BTC and transfer at the end of their working lives during the BR era, the route that the T3 took is more unusual. So if the aim of the NRM is to preserve the breadth of interest in the collection while thinning out the depth, again it seems like the T3 is an odd choice to meet that aim.

    Tom
     
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  10. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    The T9 has also run on the main line whilst in its LSWR livery. That loco has a special place in my heart as the only run I've had with it was on the 1940 Basingstoke to Waterloo with Driver Waters of Feltham who dressed the part for the occasion together with his fireman. Sadly I have no pictures but the sight of them 'standing to attention' on the footplate as they pulled into Woking is still live in my mind.

    What I do have is a record of the run to Waterloo. We had wound up to 75 by Hersham and were just at even time from the Woking start before we had various checks. The run from starting out of Surbiton to Waterloo was done in 15 minutes, no less, with 74 through Wimbledon which was interesting!

    All this discussion has revealed is that old adage of you not being able to please all of the people all of the time. I think that Tom's logic is impeccable but that's the ideal world scenario. I'm sure that NRM policy has adapted over time and not every decision will have been seen as the right one by everyone. That will probably be true of anything decided from today onwards. Overall, I wouldn't presume to comment on NRM decisions other than to support the thrust of what they are trying to do. T3? T9? At least they are both still around.
     
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  11. John Petley

    John Petley Part of the furniture

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    I think you have made some good points here, Tom, and also in your post #746. Obviously, the NRM has taken a different view. I can only hazard a guess as to why and I am happy to be shot down by someone from the NRM (or any other wiser person) who may know better. Here is my reasoning:- the T9 has a certain celebrity status which the T3 doesn't, especially for people of a certain generation. Ask anyone who remembers Southern steam before it was whittled down to Bulleids, USA tanks & Standards and, excluding the Isle of Wight, the two LSWR classes which are most likely to be mentioned are the M7s and T9s. 120, in non-authentic LSWR livery, was retained for two years after the rest of the class was withdrawn and worked a number of railtours, including the Brighton Blue Belle with Caley No. 123.

    By contrast, I would imagine that until No. 563 was sent to Canada and then suddenly gifted to the Swanage Railway, it would have been one of those engines in the National Collection which could easily have been overlooked. Yes, everyone would have admired it for its handsome looks but very few people would have known much about its history. The early withdrawal date (1945) being clearly a factor and also over 70 years without having been steamed. If we consider the other 4-4-0s in the collection, I'd guess I'm probably not unique in saying that the loco I know the least about (Its history, what merited its preservation, etc) is the NER M1 No. 1621, which also was withdrawn before nationalisation and hasn't steamed since. I'm sure it's worthy of its place in the collection and it looks a fine engine, but I really don't know much more. On the other hand, think of City of Truro, the Midland Compound, Butler-Henderson, Cheltenham or the T9. They have all been in the public eye at some point since 1968.

    I'm not saying I agree with this line of thinking, but there is a certain logic to it. I could be totally wrong, but perhaps not. It is not inconsistent with the statement which Spamcan received from the NRM.

    Oh, and talking of the NER, there are two 2-4-0s from that company preserved by the NRM..............
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2017
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  12. Enterprise

    Enterprise Part of the furniture

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    Fair points.

    I am concerned that the NRM's idea of how to, "vastly improve the way exhibits are displayed and interpreted, especially at York." might well be arguable.
     
  13. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Tom's logic seems impeccable to me, but the T9 is already off museum territory so giving it away wouldn't help at all with creating empty space, whereas the T3 had been away and was coming back, so needed to be found a home for. In terms of the history of preservation itself, the T3, as one of the few locomotives preserved before 1948, has a place in that story. The original planned preservation list from 1961 is worth looking at: there's a copy here. http://www.didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/visitor_information/otheritems/GWShist_01.html
     
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  14. Bill Drewett

    Bill Drewett Member

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    Demonstrating that something's arguable? Sounds like a job for this forum!
     
  15. 8126

    8126 Member

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    The T9 also represents an intermediate part of the 4-4-0 story, the rebuilding of the pre-grouping classes to keep them relevant on secondary expresses. Of course, 3440 arguably does this too, but 120 enjoyed a much more extended career as a result. So the Southern 4-4-0 progression is 737 as built, 120 showing the era of rebuilds, and 925 as the genuine post-grouping progression.

    I do agree with Tom on the relevance of the early preservation of 563 though, but no time to expand on the thought.
     
  16. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Your logic is impeccable too and following on from Tom's cogent articulations perhaps illustrates the T3 decision is borne of expedience as much as any overarching strategic considerations?
     
  17. Mogul

    Mogul Member

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    The T9 also bares a Mesismit bullet hole in the cab roof. This has been specifically preserved with careful instructions to avoid any repairs or corrosion from removing it.

    Having worked in the cab I can assure you that looking up at the daylight through the hole very clearly brings home the story of the railways at war and how railway workers often found themselves in great danger and in the front line of defending this country.

    If the value of an exhibit is judged on their ability to tell a story then this is one that the T9 is uniquely equip for.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2017
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  18. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Perhaps a little harsh, perhaps kinder to say that as there would be no benefit in changing the T9s status they haven't done so, which is reasonable enough. After all we wouldn't want them giving things away on some point of principle if there was nothing to be gained by doing so. In the same vein the GWR 4-6-0s are probably safer because of the existence of Swindon, especially if one guesses that they might want to keep one GWR locomotive at both Shildon and York.

    I hope that's not a nasty dig at the Bluebell for recently repairing war damage on one of their locos...
     
  19. Mogul

    Mogul Member

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    Its not as I was unaware of that. But now I'm intrigued. Do you have a link?
     
  20. Tim Light

    Tim Light Well-Known Member

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    Those are my words that summarise a brief interchange of ideas that we had. I don't have much in the way of hard detail, but cramming as many vehicles as possible into the Great Hall is not the future.
     
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