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LSWR T3 563

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by nick813, Mar 30, 2017.

  1. John Petley

    John Petley Well-Known Member

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    May I may make a comparison with another loco (but not No. 488 as per my post #1098) - and one which a decade ago would seem an equally unlikely candidate for a return to steam on a former BR(S) line? I'm talking about GWR 2-8-0T No., 4253. Without wishing to drift off into a debate about how appropriate it may or may not be on a former Colonel Stephens line in the South East of England, here is a loco which really was a beat-up wreck. It was one of the roughest engines in Barry scrapyard. Look at the two top pictures here.

    No. 563 was able to travel some 70 miles up to Waterloo at 25mph at a maximum boiler pressure of 60lb psi after a fairly minimal amount of touching up at Eastleigh (the word"overhaul" would be an exaggeration). This is still essentially the condition in which it is in now By contrast, 4253 would go absolutely nowhere in the condition in which it arrived at Rolvenden. It couldn't have moved an inch under its own power even if you could have got the boiler pressure up to 60 lb psi as so many parts were missing or rusted through!

    Fast forward to 2017 and the group working on it have made unbelievable strides to turning it into a working engine and according to the latest "Tenterden Terrier", the current estimate for the complete overhaul is about £400,000. True, No. 4253 isn't the only survivor of its class and in view of the state it was in, there will not be the same issues about conserving original as with the T3. On the other hand, while not underestimating the work likely to be needed before 563 runs again, I think the group restoring No. 4253 would have given anything to have started with a loco in the same condition as the T3.
     
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  2. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    yes but that's not the point. The point is can 563 be restored without replacing so much of it that it ceases to be what you started out with? There's no doubt that any loco can be restored, the debate is whether it can be done without effectively building a replica.
     
  3. martin1656

    martin1656 Resident of Nat Pres

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    So what on 4253 is new, cab bunker tanks cladding, some of the sandboxes, a section of frame, boiler tubes, not a lot of original material there, so in your view is 4253 is a replica?
     
  4. ruddingtonrsh56

    ruddingtonrsh56 New Member

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    But (as I think has been pointed out on more than one occasion on this thread) a supporter has agreed to pay for the money of a dismantling and assessment of the loco, so the idea of money being an issue at this stage isn't applicable. And often, the only way to properly assess whether the loco is in a viable condition for overhaul is to strip it down and examine the bare bones of the loco. As for funding, I would expect that the majority of loco overhauls do not have complete funds when the overhaul is started. As 563 is the only loco owned by the Swanage railway itself, that reduces the risk that funds and energy will have to be diverted elsewhere to other projects.

    I haven't read the article myself, so cannot comment on the content. But I personally do not think what the Swanage railway is currently doing with 563 is massively different to something railways across the country do with locos year in, year out. The only difference in the scenario is the way in which the Swanage have come to take ownership of the loco, which some people just do not seem to be OK with
     
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  5. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    that's not relevant. The controversy regarding 563 is that it is a Museum loco, 4253 came from a scrapyard, that's somewhat different
     
  6. ruddingtonrsh56

    ruddingtonrsh56 New Member

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    So what is your point? It's acceptable to replace more components of a loco being restored from scrapyard condition than it is when restoring a loco from museum condition?
     
  7. martin1656

    martin1656 Resident of Nat Pres

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    You seem to have a very blinkered view of things, so are you saying no Museum loco should be overhauled if its deemed acceptable? so by your own responce i would think that you would not agree with any NRM loco being returned to steam? that 925, 850, 70013 should all have been retired to museums.
     
  8. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    I'm not saying anything of the sort. I already declared that this opinion isn't mine, I'm defining what the argument is about. Read the thread!

    Post 1114 to save you bothering.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
  9. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Well-Known Member

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    You're entitled to your opinion, but it doesn't make it factually correct. As I stated earlier, this isn't (in my case at any rate) an excuse for "Beano bashing".

    I have no axe to grind against Steam Railway Magazine - I simply wish that the tone of their articles was presently differently. I also wish (and perhaps this is the word missing from my previous posts) some consistency in their editorials.

    And as stated earlier - unlike the Taff Vale Tank - LSWR 563's appeal by the Swanage Railway has raised £42,000. By far more than the vast majority of "half baked disaster zones sitting in sidings up and down the country".

    So your view does not really ring true. It will not cost £42,000 to strip the locomotive down one hopes, so work can start immediately and if all is well, a restoration to working condition can be met - and if not, a better informed restoration of the locomotive can commence.
     
  10. Jimc

    Jimc Well-Known Member

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    Every generation has its own priorities. I wonder if a future generation will curse this one for the amount of original fabric that was discarded in the desire to run as many locos as possible.
     
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  11. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Well-Known Member

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    By definition it won't have improved. It hasn't been worked on since then except for minor attention for use in The Railway Children play.

    This suspicion is built on:

    1) next to no knowledge on the condition of the locomotive
    2) assumptions

    :Morewaitingisrequired:
     
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  12. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    well it would wouldn't it? A suspicion stops being a suspicion once something like a strip down at the Flour Mill has been concluded!
     
  13. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Well-Known Member

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    I think you've missed the point. Your suspicion is literally baseless. We have next to no idea of what is involved yet. So saying "I suspect..." anything at this point is fruitless.

    I may as well say "I suspect they will need to fix the boiler with cheese" for all the good it does!
     
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  14. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    that's why I said that's what I suspect will happen.Because I don't know, but I think that's what the strip down will show. I bet you'd argue with yourself if you were in solitary,
     
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  15. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Well-Known Member

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    Right, but you think the strip down will show that based on what...exactly? Literally no info other than the imaginings in your head.

    This is part of the problem and part of why the terminology used by Steam Railway has been called into question in this thread. The Flour Mill have restored a Beattie Well Tank - did anyone think they did a bad job there? No? What about some of the other locomotives they've overhauled or fixed parts for?

    So why were the words "rip apart" used?

    There's three parties that seemed to get an unfair press there. The NRM, the Swanage Railway and the Flour Mill. No idea why the latter seem to get it too, given the generous offer to look the locomotive over and their known abilities in engineering.
     
  16. Wenlock

    Wenlock Active Member Friend

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    And indeed the Flour Mill have experience of Victorian engineering, not just the Beattie but also Met No.1
     
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  17. Johnb

    Johnb Part of the furniture

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    A lot of preserved locos are replicas on your criteria. The best example is 60103 where very little will be original and Mallard has had nine different boilers opinion it's working life. 60007 sits on wheels provided by classmate Miles Beevor.
     
  18. stephenvane

    stephenvane Member

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    The cost of the strip down is being met by a generous benefactor. The £42k is being spent entirely on the reassembly of the loco, either to working order or not as the case may be.
     
  19. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    Why don't you read the post you quoted ? I didn't say that was my opinion, I posed a question, I did not say that was my criteria.I was referring to the Steam Railway article, read the posts.
     
  20. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    Are you on something? it will show what is needed to be done and if it is feasible to restore the loco to working order. What else could it show?
     

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