If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

LSWR T3 563

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by nick813, Mar 30, 2017.

  1. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    16,400
    Likes Received:
    23,965
    Location:
    21C102
    I believe that there is a clause in the terms of the bequest of both 263 and 592 that they remain in SE&CR livery.

    Tom
     
  2. Cartman

    Cartman Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    Messages:
    890
    Likes Received:
    589
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Yes I like that livery too, possibly my favourite pre BR one
     
  3. Mark Thompson

    Mark Thompson Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2017
    Messages:
    554
    Likes Received:
    1,155
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    E sussex
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Such a shame, seeing as it is merely a coat of paint.
     
    paulhitch likes this.
  4. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    3,290
    Likes Received:
    4,018
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Apprentice Rail Engineer, MNLPS Treasurer, Author
    Location:
    Sidcup, Kent
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    If it were up to the most vocal among us, everything would be in black, or dark green, and BR logos.

    No thank you!

    Where locomotives can reasonably wear pre-grouping liveries authentically they should. They are bright, colourful, and attractive. Why reduce a locomotive's USP to the general public deliberately?

    *Of course, this comes with the caveat that some engines can only wear BR liveries and that is perfectly acceptable.
     
  5. mdewell

    mdewell Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2005
    Messages:
    303
    Likes Received:
    323
    Occupation:
    UK & Ireland Heritage Railways Webmaster
    Location:
    Essex
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Protagonists of the many livery debates on NP please take note. :D
     
  6. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    16,400
    Likes Received:
    23,965
    Location:
    21C102
    It was a condition of the move that saw the original owning trusts transfer their assets to the Bluebell Railway Trust; as such it is reflective of the preferences of those who had the foresight and tenacity to preserve the locos in the first place. So it should absolutely be respected in my view. It is no different from someone donating money to a ring-fenced fund within a charity: you wouldn't advocate that the recipient should be free to ignore the instruction and spend the money on something completely different, would you?

    Tom
     
  7. JMJR1000

    JMJR1000 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2009
    Messages:
    626
    Likes Received:
    374
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cleethorpes
    I would totally agree that it's only the right thing to respect one's wishes, certainly when they donate something as priceless and useful to a railway as steam locomotive, and one that is unique railway preservation. That said however, I've always thought the Bluebell Railway's core aim is to represent the history of the Southern Railway and it's pre-grouping predecessors, the FULL history that is. And one way in which they that is how their locomotives are presented livery wise, which as the Southern Railway retained many of these victorian designs such as the H Class, means it has a long and rich history to tell or indeed display via ways of the livery it's presented in.

    Surely being able to display the H Class in all the varying liveries it's had over the years helps to tell it's story better, then just keeping it in it's original livery all the time, no?

    Now of course I realise bequest specified they remain in the original liveries, I respect that. But surely in such circumstances as this, one does have to wonder, should a such a request be kept forever? Surely one has to wonder could there not be an argument that there should be a cut off point so to speak? It's not like it would never return to that original livery if it was changed. You could have it so that it alters the livery every now and then, but always return in due course to the original livery so as to keep respectful to the request. Much like Tornado I suppose in that respect. Tornado has and will no doubt have different liveries from time to time, but it's 'core' livery so to speak, is always the original BR apple green.

    Again as I say I'd agree completely in being respectful to someone's wishes, but all I suggest is there has to be some wiggle room in such circumstances surely?
     
    jnc likes this.
  8. Jimc

    Jimc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    2,869
    Likes Received:
    2,265
    Occupation:
    Once computers, now part time writer I suppose.
    Location:
    SE England
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I'm not sure what wiggle room there can possibly be. The railway was at liberty to turn down the bequest if they didn't like the conditions.
     
  9. Mark Thompson

    Mark Thompson Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2017
    Messages:
    554
    Likes Received:
    1,155
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    E sussex
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I absolutely get this, Tom. It's not up to any of us to decide, I know. I'm just one of the "variety is the spice of life" types.
    That said, it's very heartening to see the apparent general support for pre-grouping liveries, as opposed to the wall-to-wall BR black fixation which seemed so prevalent about 15 years ago
     
  10. Miff

    Miff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2008
    Messages:
    2,040
    Likes Received:
    1,445
    If this condition applies only to two locos it’s not much of a problem really. The Bluebell can do everything you suggest with all the others. And the occasional inauthentic livery is good too for a little while - such as the P in Bluebell blue.
     
  11. 35B

    35B Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    10,008
    Likes Received:
    6,652
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Agreed. And the number of locomotives that can run in SECR colours is far lower than the number that can run in BR.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
    2392 and Miff like this.
  12. Steve B

    Steve B Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2008
    Messages:
    1,463
    Likes Received:
    807
    Location:
    Shropshire
    I would generally agree with this, but disagree with regard to P class 323 - "Bluebell". It really is in an authentic livery! It's not pretending to be something it isn't, or wearing a livery like BR lined passenger green that it would never have carried (though that might be nice... no, forget that I said that). It is in the livery of the company that owns it, and has carried a version of that livery for something like 50 years (much longer than any other livery), having been owned by the Bluebell for 59 years - in contrast to the SECR for 12 years, the Southern for 25 years and BR for about 11 years!

    Anyway, I'm having to remind myself that this thread is really about 563, not the livery policies of a totally different railway. Perhaps take further discussion of the Bluebell's policies to the appropriate thread now?

    Thanks

    Steve B
     
  13. 007

    007 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2012
    Messages:
    202
    Likes Received:
    249
  14. Cartman

    Cartman Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    Messages:
    890
    Likes Received:
    589
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Don't know, but I like it, looks good
     
  15. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    16,400
    Likes Received:
    23,965
    Location:
    21C102
    It's in Drummond livery, in which case the colour would be what was called "Royal" green. You'd need detailed notes for when 563 was painted like that (and also compare with records of changes for details of things like the chimney, piston tail rod covers, location of drift lubricators and so on) but broadly that livery would date to between 1898 and 1912.

    My reasoning is as follows:
    1. The lining in Drummond days was much wider than in Adams days - basically black boiler bands, lined with white and with three inch tan stripes on the cladding. The Adams lining was black with a fine white line, and looks much more discrete in photos.
    2. Tender lettering - there were variations of SWR, L&SWR and LSWR with and without dots. The form as shown (LSWR, no dots, large letters) was standardised after March 1898, though again you'd need records as to when a particular loco was repainted. Some locos had LSWR in Adams era, but the letters were smaller.
    3. Splasher monogram - it is the company coat of Arms, again a Drummond feature. Typically in Adams era, an ornate intertwined LSWR device was used, though in earlier days the company coat of arms could be found.
    So I would suggest that this model is as shown running in the early 1900s (the lack of tail rods on the front of the cylinders again indicates a later date).

    If you want a photo of 563 as originally built, try Bradley page 128, where there is an absolutely superb study of the loco, and - aesthetic opinion here - rather prettier than the Drummond livery.

    I'd also recommend getting the relevant LSWR volume of "Southern Style" (available from the HMRS) as it has exhaustive research about liveries, including the lining schemes, diagrams of the monograms and letters used, letter spacings, paint formulations etc.

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
  16. JMJR1000

    JMJR1000 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2009
    Messages:
    626
    Likes Received:
    374
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cleethorpes
    Now as I know this thread is not about this issue and the preference would be to move on, I'll reply once more to make my peace so to speak on the matter and then swiftly move on. I'd agree it's not that much a problem as there are two engines how that the condition applies to, though one could also argue as they are both only surviving members of their class, then that means we will never see a C or H Class in in southern or BR guises ever again but in books and archive footage, even though such examples still do exist. It's not exactly the end of the world that this is the case of course, I just find it unfortunate we can't see them represent their respective classes in different liveries is all. That and I do reckon the H would look great in Olive SR Green~.

    But as I said I do love the SECR livery too, and really I'm just happy to know they do exist at all! So moving the subject on my part...

    Now there's another gorgeous pre-grouping livery! Gotta say way better then that lighter green it wore till recently too, seems to show off the engines shape and curves brilliantly.

    I can only hope I live long enough to see 563 meet up and even double head with it's fellow Adam's survivor much the similar in appearance, 488, whenever that is fully restored someday...
     
    Cartman likes this.
  17. RLinkinS

    RLinkinS Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2008
    Messages:
    288
    Likes Received:
    352
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Could 263 and 592 be repainted into slate grey and still comply with the terms of the bequest?
     
  18. Cartman

    Cartman Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    Messages:
    890
    Likes Received:
    589
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Yes, I was thinking of that too. Or a very quick job with some sort of temporary water based paint like was done once on a class 37 when it was painted in police colours for an advert in the 80s
     
  19. WishIHadAName

    WishIHadAName New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2013
    Messages:
    123
    Likes Received:
    96
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer

Share This Page