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Lynton and Barnstaple - Operations and Development

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by 50044 Exeter, Dec 25, 2009.

  1. Sheff

    Sheff Resident of Nat Pres

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    From an end-user point of view, I would prefer a reasonably frequent service of 4-5 coach trains to a sparse service of 9-10 coach trains. This gives the visitor more options for stop-offs, walks etc. Down side is the need for more locos and crews of course.
     
  2. fergusmacg

    fergusmacg Resident of Nat Pres

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    Which is fine if you can

    a) afford it
    b) have those number of crews/locos
    c) have sufficient paths to cope with demand

    Now I understand the enthusiast wanting to maintain historical accuracy regarding locos and train lengths but will it cut it economically - or do we have another Tally-lyn scenario were the membership has to prop up running costs (apologies if I've misread the other thread) but in this case just for 'historical accuracy'.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2016
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  3. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Most photos of the original L&B I have seen appear to show trains of about 3 - 4 carriages (or sometimes mixed trains with a carriage or two and a few wagons) behind a single loco; longer trains of 6 or more seeming to be double headed. Hardly surprising given the gradients.

    Given that, and on the assumption that replicas of the original locomotives can't be significantly more powerful, nor have significantly greater adhesion, how viable are 9 - 10 coach trains anyway? Or, put another it way: if traffic requires hauling an 9 - 10 coach train that will need double heading in any case, why not just operate two five coach trains which will have the same cost and requirement for crews, but will give a better passenger amenity?

    As for talk about Beyer Garretts and various other colonial locos - no thanks. The (original) L&B was perfect it in its self-contained simplicity. Going away from would seem to dilute the essence of what made the railway special in the first place. (And - probable heresy alert - I find the revived WHR leaves me cold for much the same reason).

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2016
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  4. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    It is said that in BR days, on what is now the the NYMR, class 5 engines were limited to 4-coach trains without banking assistance where nowadays even class 4 tender engines regularly taken 7 and sometimes 8 coach trains. Perhaps the operating rules were more conservative in those days.
     
  5. fergusmacg

    fergusmacg Resident of Nat Pres

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    I'm not a great fan of the big big jump to Beyer Garretts either (nor Colin ?) and all that it involves, but is it possible for something just a tad bigger that can manage 7-8-9 ish coach trains if the need arises without double heading, were not the MW's somewhat limited in power that forced double heading back in the day? Look at all preserved railways most are running longer trains than was ever the case in their heyday, and to do that they are generally running larger locos and in some cases much too big but we'll not go there (is that PH I can hear) and they do that because of economics - you must know that on the Bluebell Tom, otherwise you would be running services with double headed P's and Terriers rather than the mix and match currently in use with more suitable locos. What's also got to come into the mix is crew availability, now that may be fine in the leafy over populated Home Counties but its likely to be a bit different in the north of Devon and that's before we even get into the aging demographics of the volunteer base. Yes I agree in having a historical looking fleet, but don't just hamstring your prosperity by your rose tinted specs.
     
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  6. Forestpines

    Forestpines Well-Known Member

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    The Ffestiniog's post-1960s carriage profile was based on a slightly-lowered version of the L&B coach profile and can incorporate gangways, so it should be possible to fit them in.
     
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  7. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    I am afraid you have "rubbed the lamp" so the genie appears.

    As far as the standard gauge is concerned I would just say that one should always beware of rampant "big chufferitis", i.e. the search for "good" reasons to run big machines. As far as the L&B is concerned there is circumstantial evidence that the Mannings came into the "skin off rice pudding" category. The redesign of the type for the V ofR is evidence. It produced more power but introduced mechanical unreliability to the mix. I am sure that someone who really knows can confirm or deny that the re-design of bits of "Lyd" were done to improve performance. Doubtless the same person can say if these measures were successful.

    PH
     
  8. fergusmacg

    fergusmacg Resident of Nat Pres

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    No doubt someone will come along from the FR and discuss the upgrades (perhaps I need to rub a bit harder), but from what I've read it all appeared to be attempts to turn a sows ear into a silk purse with compromises along the way. Of course it looks right, but would you go that route with outdated valve gear, not much superheat and too much weight at the back end if you started with a blank sheet of paper - from what I've seen on the FR its no doubt a better solution than the original design but is it the optimum?
     
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  9. lynbarn

    lynbarn Well-Known Member

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    We had considered this some time ago, before the WHR got rebuild and the late Colin Pealling worked it out that an NGG16 would not fit the loading gauge width wise as the cylinders would or could hit the walls of some of the over bridges.

    Sure before I knew that I was a strong advocate of buying NGG16's for the L&BR as I wanted the L&BR to be successful this time around and I did not want to leave anything to chance.

    Of course 25 years on my ideas have changed and have been refined.




    Quiet simple many years ago I attended a Heritage Railway Association workshop in Birmingham and at the time the one key note discussion about Heritage Railway was to make sure that each railway did not become boring or just stayed the same one gentleman who at the time I did not know but was later to become know by a lot of people was Mr Draper from the SVR, his ideas about how to promote a railway have stuck with me ever since and if you look at the more publicly aware heritage railways you can see that things like galas or hired in Steam locos are now the norm, but one thing that the heritage movement would be up in arms with and that is if you painted identical locos in different colour schemes which where not prototypical, it was suggested that if a heritage railway was every to become fully commercialized then it would have one green, one black, one blue and one red steam locos, the point being that people will want to travel behind the different coloured locos, even if they are all built at the same time and are technically all the same.

    Another friend of mine has always said that if the public wanted to pay to have a ride behind his loco and it was to be turned out in such a away that it was commercial viable so he could continue to enjoy his hobby then what is the problem with that?

    As for the colonial style museum it appears you have not had access to the amount of research I have had via Paul Gower (who is writing a book about the L&BR and it links).

    Most of those who where promoting the L&BR for what ever personal reasons also have links around the world at commercial levels as well, it is not always known but George Newnes for instance has a town named after him in Australia, at its height it to had a gold mine narrow gauge railway, but once again as Paul is writing about this I won't go into further details.

    So you see my view is more about the influence of the L&BR around the World or the links it had with other railways, Manning Wardle's is possible the most under represented locomotive builder in the narrow gauge world in the UK, yet the works produced some fine example of locos that went around that World and have in most cases now been scrapped.

    If the L&BR was ever to decide to build a bigger version of the 2-6-2T, then it has only to look toward South Africa and take a look at the SAR 2-6-4 tank loco Manning Wardle produced a few years after the L&BR locos.

    Sure this is not L&BR Trust policy and I would never suggest it was, but if a bigger loco was required then it might just be useful for the Trust to look through a copy of the old Manning Wardle Catalog and see what was build and what could be build to keep to the family line.


    As has been said above any heritage railway has to be commercial viable and you only have to got back in time when railways where working for a living and the lack of passenger figures to realise it would close if it could not pay for itself, that is the reason why a few years ago it was looked at having a seven coach train set on the L&BR this would be the size of train set they wanted to be able to run.

    If as suggested that we also have corridor stock you would need to add more stock to the train set so you can carry the same amount of passengers you would lose due to the corridor connection, of course as I have said before the tourist market is not the railway heritage market and they require a different mind set such as coach style seating, WC's on the train, on board catering and this one is bound to wind up the the enthusiast's a good and clear sound system with the tour operator describing what you can see from the carriage window.

    You don't have to like it, but it pays the bills and also allows railways like the L&BR to run Gala weekends for the enthusiast market.
     
  10. lynbarn

    lynbarn Well-Known Member

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    I should have said that currently both our larger locos worked in South Africa and I suppose this could be considered part of the colonial museum experience.
     
  11. Felix Holt

    Felix Holt Guest

    If trains run the full 20 miles eventually then I'd suggest the main improvement to the coaching stock will have to be loos in certain coaches and thus corridor connections to allow passengers to access said loos!
    One could still use the same basic design but assume that the Southern would have upgraded the coaches in that way anyway eventually.
     
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  12. Platform 3

    Platform 3 Member

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    This is a railway that is likely to be seriously popular once up to a decent length. It's in a great location, lovely scenery and lots of nearby holidaymakers with not massive amounts else to do. I suspect that in time the compromises made elsewhere in lines that have become more popular that in their 'first lives'.
     
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  13. lynbarn

    lynbarn Well-Known Member

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    That is exactly how I see it developing, I can see that by the name alone it will and has done attracted a whole new level of working members, some of which appear to have bottomless pockets when it comes to the L&BR. As far as I am concerned this line will remain open to all colours and creeds of the railway heritage world, as everyone has the right to have an opinion on how things get done, I may not agree with what is said on here but hay, you have a right to say it.
     
  14. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    If you need bigger locos, I would love to see full size versions of the models John de Freyssinet made for his County Gate layout...
    However, I think this speculation is a wee bit premature. If we live to see a five coach train of new stock hauled by another replica MW as well as a the restored stock (mostly new!) hauled by Lyn running over a decent length of line that will be a fantastic achievement.
    And hopefully Axe, Isaac and Charles Whytock won't be homeless anytime soon.
     
  15. Small Prairie

    Small Prairie Part of the furniture

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    Issac and Charlie I think are nore then capable of doing the job on the longer lines.. and axe I believe would be an ideal out of season two coach set.

    But thats just a personal view
     
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  16. Christopher125

    Christopher125 Part of the furniture

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  17. sleepermonster

    sleepermonster Member

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    It looks to me as if a wibben element is creeping in here. If a different type of locomotive is to be considered, one with plenty of power, the ability to go round sharp corners and a fair turn of speed, what about a Manning Wardle styles double fairlie? I'll get me coat.
     
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  18. lynbarn

    lynbarn Well-Known Member

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    As far as I know Axe is the only loco currently owned by the Trust and a lot of members have made their feelings very clear on this matter and they don't want her to go anywhere, I understand that the Trust has also said that she will never be for sale.

    As for both Issac and Charles Whytock, as I understand it nether of them are going anywhere either, the other problem which some others have failed to realise is that the size of locos the L&BR require do not exist in a scrap yards in the UK, most of the 2ft gauge locos that come into the UK only go up to about 5,000lbs TE where as the L&BR will require locos to have a TE of around 10,000 lbs and so far if has been bloody difficult to find something to run on the L&BR for sometime.

    I know of at least four steam locos which could do a job on the L&BR but none of them are here in the UK and they will cost money to bring back to the UK and then you have the cost of restoration as well on top.

    Some would say that most of the locos left around the World are beyond saving and restoring back to working order and it is more cost effective to build new. Now while I don't disagree with that point, there is something about buying an old steam loco and working on it to be restored back to working order that you just cant get from a new build loco.

    I am sure that if the size of loco that the L&BR required were already here in the UK and restored ready to work then the plan to build replica Manning Wardle's as soon as money is available would not be so strong as this would not need to be a priority for the Trust, as it could then concentrate on building the rest of the line up instead thus leaving individuals to bring their locos to work on the line.

    Personally I would love to see other locos based on the L&BR, but they have to be the right sort of loco for the line, we have had Quarry Hunslet's down at Woody Bay and as much as they are wonderful locos, there are realistically to small for the L&BR operation.
     
  19. SpudUk

    SpudUk Well-Known Member

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    Can we focus on progress towards the planning permission to extended to Blackmoor and Wistlandpound before people start looking at locos to import to operate a 19 mile railway? The motive power available now (plus Lyn) is more then enough to operate a line of some 4.5 miles. On a side note, where will the station at Wistlandpoud be sited, as it's less then a mile from Blackmoor Gate which seems pointless for the time being.
     
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  20. fergusmacg

    fergusmacg Resident of Nat Pres

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    There's nothing to focus upon until the planning issues are 'sorted', besides isn't it better to just have a general chat rather than let the opponents have a platform for misinformation ?
     
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